Thanks Chris.

    Your observation that '...whether we call it bajo continuo per se,
   it's consistent in my mind to consider alfabeto a realization
   (stylized, perhaps) of the bass..', certainly coincides with my view on
   guitar basso continuo using alfabeto. And, it seems to me, reflects
   Marini's position too.

   regards
   martyn
   --- On Fri, 16/12/11, Chris Despopoulos <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
   wrote:

     From: Chris Despopoulos <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
     Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
     to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
     To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Monica Hall"
     <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
     Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
     Date: Friday, 16 December, 2011, 14:08

   I thought one of the significant points of the period was a transition
   to harmonic vs voice thinking.  And that the guitar was well
   positioned, if not instrumental, within that transition.  So whether we
   call it bajo continuo per se, it's consistent in my mind to consider
   alfabeto a realization (stylized, perhaps) of the bass.
   Of course, the alfabeto can often oversimplify that realization.  I
   look at it much the way I look at the song books you can get today,
   with guitar chords that gloss over interesting harmonic progressions.
   The same music played by the 8th graders I taught would sound very
   different from what I would choose to do.
   One thing I hear almost everywhere I go is that by and large the
   published guitar music is a performance suggestion, not writ.
   Everybody I've worked with has blessed changes to fingering, addition
   or changes of notes, and encouraged improvisation.  The Sanz book is
   viewed as a lesson book, not a book of pieces that are to be played
   exactly as written, for example.  With Roncali I was chastised for not
   improvising.  So why would alfabetos be any different?    But does that
   make them any less realizations of the bass?  If we're talking about
   pre-harmonic thinking, where else would the alfabetos come from?
   cud
     __________________________________________________________________

   From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   To: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
   Cc: Vihuelalist <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 3:41 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
   earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
     Thanks Monica,
     It is a realisation of the bass line but, because of the requirements
     of the instrument, not always with the written bass part as the
   lowest
     note on the guitar:  I guess we'll just have to agree to differ on
     this.
     Incidentally, the practical considerations for the theorbo also
   applies
     to earlier music (eg Monteverdi et als) as well as Locke and later.
     regards
     Martyn
     --- On Thu, 15/12/11, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
       From: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
       Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
       to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
       To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
       Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
       Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 20:17
     Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 3:25 PM
     Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
     earlier
     question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
     >  Hmmm...  Does a realised bass part always have to contain the bass
     >  exactly as written in the staff notation as its lowest line?  Of
     >  course, ideally yes (and on the keyboard always yes) but many
     theorbo
     >  continuo realisations, for example, are obliged to adapt the bass
     >  because of lack of chromatic notes in the instrument's lower
     register
     >  (or other reasons) and so must take the realised bass higher than
     some
     >  of the other lower parts in the work. Thus, in a couple of Locke
     >  anthems I have in front of me at this moment, the occassional low
     Eb
     >  will have to be taken at the octave higher (and  above the second
     and
     >  third choir sung bass lines) if I'm going to play a natural E
     elswhere
     >  in the work.
     I don't think this is really relevant as we were discussing the very
     early
     17th century Italian repertoire - specifically alfabeto
   accompaniments.
     >
     >  A guitar playing an Alfabeto realisation will similarly have the
     bass
     >  note somewhere in the chord - hopefully at the bottom if the
   guitar
     has
     >  bourdons on both bass courses (as my continuo guitar does) - but
   if
     not
     >  then elsewhere in the full chord.
     The point is that it that it may not do.  The "bass" is the lowest
     part.
     We, and others, have often pointed
     >  out that the peculiar stringing of the guitar (with high octaves
     >  outwards etc) when strummed produces block chord sounds rather
   than
     a
     >  contrapuntal accompaniment - I see no practical reason why this
     isn't a
     >  realisation (ie a conversion into sound, a making known of) the
     >  harmonies implied/required by the bass.
     That may your interpretation of realizing a basso continuo part but I
     don't
     think that it is anyone elses.
     Of course, a melodic bass
     >  instrument is these situations is a bonus: but also note the
     discussion
     >  sometime ago about Marini's songs and the use of a seperate bass
     with
     >  the guitar.......
     I think I made it quite clear when we discussed this before that I do
     not
     think that the separate bass line is intended to be performed with
   the
     alfabeto - indead if it were in some instances it would create
     problems.
     Here is his observation  "Note that  in some places
     >  you will find that the alfabeto does not fit with the bass line.
     This
     >  is because it is the wish of the author to  accompany the voice in
     as
     >  many ways as possible rather than while, by paying heed to the
     >  requirements of one instrument, he is constrained by those of  the
     >  other, since the guitar lacks many proper consonances."
     >  I sense he thinks it a valid 'realisation' - if imperfect.
     It may be a valid realization depending on the way you chose to
   define
     realization but it is not a realization of the bass line.
     Regards
     Monica
         .
     >  --- On Thu, 15/12/11, Monica Hall <[1][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
   wrote:
     >
     >    From: Monica Hall <[2][6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
     >    Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
     to
     >    earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
     >    To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
     >    Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
     >    Date: Thursday, 15 December, 2011, 14:37
     >
     >  ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson"
     >  <[1][5][9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
     >  To: "Monica Hall" <[2][6][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
     >  Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3][7][11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Lex
     Eisenhardt"
     >  <[4][8][12]eisenha...@planet.nl>
     >  Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:13 AM
     >  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
     >  earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
     >  >  The Corradi 1616 collection contains pieces for one, two and
     for
     >  three
     >  >  voices along with  an intabulated part for 'chitarrone', the
     guitar
     >  >  alfabeto and a staff notated bass line ('da sonare nel
     >  Clavicembalo, et
     >  >  altri Stromenti simili'). So it's not just solo songs
     accompanied
     >  by a
     >  >  solo guitar and does reflect similiar instrumental options
     found
     >  for
     >  >  just  basso continuo parts in similar collections - in short, I
     do
     >  >  think it accurate to call the guitar alfabeto a realised basso
     >  continuo
     >  >  part in this case.
     >  Well - obviously I haven't seen it but it sounds a bit like the
     >  Kapsberger villanelle. However  I don't think that it is correct
   to
     >  call the guitar alfabeto a realized basso continuo part because it
     is
     >  clearly not a realization of  the bass part.  Even if the alfabeto
     >  actually matches the bass part, the guitar does not reproduce the
     bass
     >  part or the harmony in the correct inversions.  It won't usually
     even
     >  reflect obvious harmonic progessions such as a 4-3
     suspension.  And as
     >  far as the various instruments mentioned are concerned I think
     these
     >  are alternatives rather than intended all to play together.
     >  >  Of course, like you, I doubt whether the Pope would have
     expected a
     >  >  strummed guitar in Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli. Indeed,
     is
     >  there
     >  >  even any evidence for the excessive strumming in some modern
     >  >  fashionable performances of  South American sacred settings?
     >  Probably not as much as players today like to think - but Eloy
     perhaps
     >  could tell us more about that if he is not too busy.
     >  >  We also agree on the excessive strumming ('thrashing about')
     often
     >  >  found in some modern performances of solo songs.
     >  Yes indeed!
     >  Monica
     >  >
     >  >  --- On Wed, 14/12/11, Monica Hall
   <[5][9][13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
     wrote:
     >  >
     >  >    From: Monica Hall <[6][10][14]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
     >  >    Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was:
     Return
     >  to
     >  >    earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
     >  >    To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[7][11][15]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
     >  >    Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[8][12][16]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lex
     Eisenhardt"
     >  >    <[9][13][17]eisenha...@planet.nl>
     >  >    Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 15:44
     >  >
     >  >  ----- Original Message -----
     >  >  From: "Martyn Hodgson"
   <[1][10][14][18]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
     >  >  To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[2][11][15][19]eisenha...@planet.nl>
     >  >  Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3][12][16][20]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
     >  >  Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 9:52 AM
     >  >  Subject: [VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
     >  earlier
     >  >  question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
     >  >  Maybe I am butting in here but I think we are a bit at cross
     >  >  purposes.  I
     >  >  don't have a copy of Corradi's book but I assume that it is a
     >  >  collection of
     >  >  solo songs with voice part, bass part and alfabeto over the
     voice
     >  part.
     >  >  What Agazzari is concerned with primarily is accompanying vocal
     >  music
     >  >  in
     >  >  several parts - (which in the  context I think it is
     appropriate to
     >  >  refer to
     >  >  as polyphony).
     >  >  The final two pages are concerned with explaining how to
     accompany
     >  >  Palestrina's Messa Papae Marcelli.  Surely the Pope would have
     had
     >  a
     >  >  fit if
     >  >  the baroque guitar or even the chitarrina was strumming
     >  continuously
     >  >  throughout (even if the guitarist was Amat!).  This
     >  >  is going to be performed in church as part of the Mass and the
     only
     >  >  likely
     >  >  accompaniment would have been the organ with possible a theorbo
     or
     >  >  other
     >  >  bass instrument reinforcing the lowest part.
     >  >  The other instruments are more likely to have been involved
     when
     >  >  accompanying secular vocal music in several parts as in the
     >  choruses in
     >  >  the
     >  >  Intermedii.
     >  >  In any case I don't think that the idea is to accompany solo
     songs
     >  with
     >  >  elaborate instrumental accompaniments as often seems to happen
     >  today.
     >  >  Monica
     >  >  >  Dear Lex,
     >  >  >
     >  >  >  Much as I deprecate the high lervels of banging and
     thrashing
     >  about
     >  >  >  produced by some guitar continuo players these days, I see
     no
     >  >  reason to
     >  >  >  suppose that strumming should be generally eschewed ('It
     seems
     >  >  unlikely
     >  >  >  however that a chordal style, continuously including all
     >  courses of
     >  >  the
     >  >  >  instrument, was intended'). For example, song
     accompaniments
     >  with
     >  >  >  Alfabeto are surely nothing more than basso continuo
     >  realisations
     >  >  on
     >  >  >  the guitar (as for example in the Corradi 1616) I
     mentioned.
     >  >  >
     >  >  >  rgds
     >  >  >
     >  >  >  Martyn
     >  >  >
     >  >  >  --- On Wed, 14/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt
     >  <[4][13][17][21]eisenha...@planet.nl>
     >  >  wrote:
     >  >  >
     >  >  >    From: Lex Eisenhardt <[5][14][18][22]eisenha...@planet.nl>
     >  >  >    Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was
     Re:
     >  >  Agazzari
     >  >  >    guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
     >  >  >    To: "Monica Hall" <[6][15][19][23]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
     >  >  >    Cc: "Vihuelalist"
   <[7][16][20][24]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
     >  >  >    Date: Wednesday, 14 December, 2011, 8:51
     >  >  >
     >  >  >  >> Agazzari was working in Rome and Siena, and probably the
     >  >  chitarra
     >  >  >  spagnuola was more widely known there around 1600.
     >  >  >  >> But Agazzari's 'Del sonare sopra il basso' is really
     about
     >  >  figured
     >  >  >  bass and counterpoint, and from how he describes the use of
     the
     >  >  >  'ornamental' instruments it appears that the chordal style
     of
     >  the
     >  >  >  guitar is not within sight. I doubt if Agazzari would have
     >  >  considered
     >  >  >  the alfabeto of the guitar as a 'foundation', while the
     bass is
     >  not
     >  >  >  even performed on the guitar.
     >  >  >  >
     >  >  >  > I think you are interpreting what he says in too narrow a
     >  way.
     >  >  >  Amongst the second group of instruments he has included the
     >  Lirone,
     >  >  >  Cetera and the Pandora.  These are all instruments which
     are
     >  >  capable
     >  >  >  of filling in the harmony to some extent.  There is no
     reason
     >  to
     >  >  >  suppose that they played nothing but a single lin - what
     would
     >  the
     >  >  >  point be - and the same is true of the chitarrina.  It
     could
     >  be
     >  >  >  strumming away in there!
     >  >  >  Agazzari (in Strunk) says: 'Like ornaments are those which,
     in
     >  a
     >  >  >  playful and _contrapuntal_ fashion, make the harmony more
     >  agreeable
     >  >  and
     >  >  >  sonorous.'
     >  >  >  The instruments with 'imperfect harmony [of the parts] such
     as
     >  the
     >  >  >  cetera, lirone, chitarrina, etc.' could indeed have played
     more
     >  >  than
     >  >  >  one voice at a time, although single line should also be
     >  considered
     >  >  >  possible. But I assume that Agazzari would have expected
     that
     >  also
     >  >  this
     >  >  >  was done 'in a contrapuntal fashion.' And yes, on the
     cetera
     >  and
     >  >  >  chitarrina that could possibly mean strumming. It seems
     >  unlikely
     >  >  >  however that a chordal style, continuously including all
     >  courses of
     >  >  the
     >  >  >  instrument, was intended
     >  >  >  Lex
     >  >  >  To get on or off this list see list information at
     >  >  >
   [1][8][17][21][25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/i
     ndex.htm
     >  l
     >  >  >
     >  >  >  --
     >  >  >
     >  >  > References
     >  >  >
     >  >  >  1.
     >
   [9][18][22][26]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     >  >  >
     >  >
     >  >  --
     >  >
     >  > References
     >  >
     >  >  1.
     >
   [19][23][27]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@
     yahoo.co
     >  .uk
     >  >  2.
     >
   [20][24][28]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenhardt@pla
     net.nl
     >  >  3.
     >
   [21][25][29]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dar
     tmouth.e
     >  du
     >  >  4.
     >
   [22][26][30]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenhardt@pla
     net.nl
     >  >  5.
     >
   [23][27][31]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenhardt@pla
     net.nl
     >  >  6.
     >
   [24][28][32]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscal
     i.co.uk
     >  >  7.
     >
   [25][29][33]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dar
     tmouth.e
     >  du
     >  >  8.
     [26][30][34]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     >  >  9.
     [27][31][35]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     >  >
     >
     >  --
     >
     > References
     >
     >  1.
     >

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   th.e
     du
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     >  5.

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     >  6.

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     >  7.
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   [38][42]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@yaho
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   [40][44]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenhardt@planet.
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   [41][45]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@yaho
   o.co
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     >  11.

   [42][46]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenhardt@planet.
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   th.e
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   [44][48]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenhardt@planet.
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     >  14.

   [45][49]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenhardt@planet.
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     >  15.

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   .uk
     >  16.

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   th.e
     du
     >  17. [48][52]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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     >  19.
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   [50][54]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@yaho
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     >  20.

   [51][55]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenhardt@planet.
   nl
     >  21.

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   th.e
     du
     >  22.

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   nl
     >  23.

   [54][58]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenhardt@planet.
   nl
     >  24.

   [55][59]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co
   .uk
     >  25.

   [56][60]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmou
   th.e
     du
     >  26. [57][61]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     >  27. [58][62]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     >
     --
   References
     1.
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     2.
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     3.
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   .uk
     4.
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     5.
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   .uk
     6.
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     8.
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   .uk
     15.
   [77]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
     16.
   [78]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
   du
     17.
   [79]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
     18.
   [80]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
     19.
   [81]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
     20.
   [82]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
   du
     21. [83]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htm
     22. [84]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     23.
   [85]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
     24.
   [86]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
     25.
   [87]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
     26.
   [88]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
     27.
   [89]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
     28.
   [90]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
     29.
   [91]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
     30. [92]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     31. [93]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     32.
   [94]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
   .uk
     33.
   [95]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
     34.
   [96]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
   du
     35.
   [97]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
     36.
   [98]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
     37.
   [99]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
     38.
   [100]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@yahoo.c
   o.uk
     39.
   [101]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.
   edu
     40.
   [102]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
     41.
   [103]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@yahoo.c
   o.uk
     42.
   [104]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
     43.
   [105]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.
   edu
     44.
   [106]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
     45.
   [107]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
     46.
   [108]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
     47.
   [109]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.
   edu
     48. [110]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     49. [111]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     50.
   [112]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@yahoo.c
   o.uk
     51.
   [113]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
     52.
   [114]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.
   edu
     53.
   [115]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
     54.
   [116]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
     55.
   [117]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
     56.
   [118]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.
   edu
     57. [119]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
     58. [120]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

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 119. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 120. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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