Message recieved and understood. It does highlight the fact that we don't
always understand one another and therefore get at cross purposes.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Despopoulos" <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2012 9:14 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
I feel a need to clarify one thing. In no way was I suggesting that
alfabeto playing is somehow inferior to punteado. What I meant is that
the alfabeto schema that lays out the fingering for each chord is there
to introduce players to the guitar so they can play pieces notated in
alfabeto. After becoming accomplished, the player would not refer to
the alfabeto schema, but having internalized it, would simply read the
music. Same as guitarists do with chord charts today. That's the
sense in which I meant the alfabeto is there to get you going... I
meant the schema printed at the front of the book.
Yes, improvisation must be appropriate. That relies on scholarship --
either your own, or more usually the collective scholarship of many,
with helpful guidance from a teacher. That's how moderns have to
approach it. In the day, improvisation was guided by the current
tastes, written rules, and I can only imagine oral tradition to some
degree. But improvisation was part of the music. As such, I can only
imagine that while playing alfabeto, a player who had graduated from
looking up chords in the schema would have fiddled around a bit.
cud
__________________________________________________________________
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
To: Chris Despopoulos <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Vihuelalist <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 9:32 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
Well - I think we are getting a bit bogged down here.
The point is that the alfabeto chords (and other chords) are arranged
in the way that most
conveniently fits them on to the guitar fingerboard. The order of the
notes
and which ones are doubled is determined by
practical considerations not by what anyone may have learnt in their
harmony
course.
Most of them can't be easily be rearranged or refingered and in the
context in
which they are used there is not a lot of point in doing so. In what
circumtances would you want to use one form of Chord A rather than
another?
The chords in Sanz' Labyrinth are the same old basic chords played in
different positions on the fingerboard. They are not revoiced or
re-arranged in any way. What Sanz has in mind is plaing different
harmonic progressions at different pitches not altering the chords
themselves.
I don't perceive music in alfabeto as being a way of "getting you to
play the guitar" or some sort of stepping stone to doing something
superior. It is a perfectly valid tradition in its own right. After
all people had been playing the 4-course guitar for years before
alfabeto came on the scene. Obviously you can do things like inserting
4-3 suspensions and 7th into the chords and adding ornamentation and of
course you can write out completely different chords in tablature.
Improvisation doesn't mean doing something completely out of character.
Monica
----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Despopoulos"
<[1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
To: "Monica Hall" <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "David van Ooijen"
<[3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 9:22 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
> I have an opinion -- Giving that opinion may open me up to some
> "clarification", which is why I'm giving it. In other words, if I'm
> wrong about this, please let me know!
> When playing the modern guitar, I'll choose to add the D on the 2nd
> course (from high to low) or not, at will. Considerations include
> practical (as Monica stated for chord changes), leading notes, or
> general emphasis within the musical context. Everybody learns the G
> chord (modern) in various ways, and then later sees other people
> playing it with variations. At some point, one tries all the
> variations at least once.
> My opinion is that the Alfabeto is there to "get you playing the
> guitar"... Same as rudimentary chord books today. See your typical
> Ukulele book, for example. Sanz expanded on the Alfabeto with his
> Labarinto, and makes the claim that with all these chords you can
now
> compose whatever variations you want (roughly paraphrased from
> memory). But (again, my opinion) this is still a guideline meant to
> illustrate the wonderful quality of the guitar, the displacement of
> chord forms to other positions, yielding other chords. I believe
> chords, as a concept, were fairly new at the time, and this
Labarinto
> was quite the innovation.
> Further, my opinion is that you will reach a level of playing where
> your taste dictates your answers to these types of questions, in the
> given situation. This is the level you want to reach, and I think
Sanz
> would want you to reach it. If you don't know how or why to play a
G
> chord, by all means, use the Alfabeto religiously. If you have
moved
> to the next level, take the Alfabeto as a guideline, but add your
own
> flavor to the music.
> I forget where I read it, and it was in the context of interpreting
> Baroque music on the MODERN guitar, but somebody said (again,
> paraphrased from memory), "In that time, any musician who failed to
> improvise on a piece was a boring bird indeed." Something to that
> effect. (I imagine Richelieu fell into that category... But that's
> another topic.)
> cud
> __________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> To: David van Ooijen <[6]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>
> Cc: Vihuelalist <[7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 5:23 PM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
> My ears have no problem with doubling the 3rd. As I pointed out
> Chords B, & and N all have the major 3rd doubled. And the consonant
> form of chord L has the minor 3rd doubled. That doesn't seem to
have
> bothered guitarists in the 17th century and it shouldn't bother you
> today either.
> I doubt whether you have encountered the dissonant form of Chord L
in
> your harmony lessons either. That is a purely practical device.
> Monica
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David van Ooijen"
> <[1][8]davidvanooi...@gmail.com>
> To: "Vihuelalist" <[2][9]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 10:12 PM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: G chord on Baroque Guitar
> > On 9 September 2012 23:08, Monica Hall
<[3][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> wrote:
> >> I don't think that doubling the 3rd is an issue or that what
people
> learn in
> >> their harmony lessons today is particularly relevant. I doubt
> whether
> >> guitarists at the beginning of the 17th century thought in those
> terms.
> >
> > Neither do today's guitarists who chose for 33002(3), but their
ears
> > tell them it's the better choice. In harmony lessons you just
learn
> to
> > give names to what your ears already told you. In other words,
don't
> > turn the argument around.
> >
> > David
> >
> > -- *******************************
> > David van Ooijen
> > [4][11]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
> > [5]www.davidvanooijen.nl
> > *******************************
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:[13]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
> 2. mailto:[14]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 3. mailto:[15]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 4. mailto:[16]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
> 5. [17]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
>
--
References
1. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
4. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
6. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
7. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
8. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
9. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
11. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
13. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
14. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
15. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
16. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
17. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
