hello Ben, > Again, I don't think StackExchange intended to split communities
Sure it wasn't intentional: it's an aftermath of the explosion of the PC market of the 90s when internet switched from a community self governance to eternal september then to the market of internet services. Stackoverflow and was nothing but an imitation if the last stage (brain dead version) of internet: providing a service instead of trying gather people around a decentralized project (If they did so, we probably would have a discussion about how to take the users power back on usenet for example). Also I really think the text you quoted is problematic: > > > Stackoverflow is sort of like the anti-experts-exchange I really makes me think about the Steve Job's "computers for the rest of us": instead of thinking about helping people to join communities, let's create other habits and customs for beginners. Even if the intention was good, it has a terrible side effect of keeping users away to be familiar with the tools we had. Something power users didn't mention is that we all started our journey with basic configurations and basically just read and reply from mutt (or the MUA of *your* choice, fitting *your* needs) then we lurked, posted, didn't took it personnally when someone mentionned we posted questions from the FAQ (then became ashame), trying to anwser people not only to help but also knowing that if the answer wasn't good enough, people like Bram, Sven, Vincent and all the people I don't remember the names will take over the thread to teach something to both I and the one I was trying to help. holding experts and rookies appart is the way GAFAM changed Internet from a welcoming and inspiring community to a market doomed to scroll and follow the dark patterns. StackExchange don't emancipate from that. But I think that way because I had the chance to know the dying internet And it took years to me to understand the rants of older grumpy people saying that the culture was even better in earlier stages of computers evolution. Then I joined conferences like fosdem, perl workshops, unix conventions and so on and that's the way I realized how poor my practices was comming from the PC culture were Amiga was the best we had (don't get me wrong: Amiga was awesome but lack of Unix culture). StackExchange, IBM PC clones, Apple products and GAFAM services has the same problem: taking the ability to be a real community from us. Also: it rises all the trust, privacy and gouvernance problems and more recently the ecological one: when you know your administrator and he/she calls for founding for a new server or hard drive, you can feel the economical or ecological consequences of it. Even if StackExchange is transparent about their operations: who cares? > Rather, I'm glad that StackExchange created new communities. I guess it's because you have no idea about what we all lost here. but nowadays, more and more people are aware of it and tries to resurect. > I "came into tech," I didn't have many guides. Sophisticated mailing > programs weren't (then) on my list of things to learn and master, > though as I'll return to in a moment are part of my recent search for > digital control. *this* is such an enlightenment to me! thank you very much. as I mention earlier: the first steps are not so hard if you keep those ideas in mind: * baby steps are OK! if you can read a mailing list, ask and reply, that's basically what StackExchange offers and it's easy to setup * StackExchange seems to be easier to jump in but that's the error the GAFAM wants you to do: instead of discovering the basics of your computer environement (which is a highly rewarding time to spend), you just learn to become a StackExchange user (no freedom here). * Don't do it alone: find help from the community from the very begining. on or off line. I mean: I know the developpers of vim or mutt won't help you to setup your starter kit but there are many people happy to help. > So, while there are probably differences in StackExchange and other > things: perhaps we ought celebrate those differences and communities > rather than be sad and angry about them? I would be very happy if StackExchange would be worth splitting communities by putting something else, as huge as the old style does, on the table. It doesn't so it's just a cost for all of us. > Indeed, StackExchange proved > a _gateway_ to more personal, in-control computing for me. Isn't that > wonderful? Of course it's wonderful! don't get me wrong: we are running after the same goal: how to build the best communities but maybe we should have a deeper discussion on this topic (what are the economical, ethical, and social properties of a good communities and how to consider existing ones). I think we are way out of topic here but I keep thinking you level probably raised faster with the communities the way I experienced it. > Another example: I taught my elderly grandmother how to use a computer > (and another how to use a tablet). You see? that's my point :) why didn't you let her find her way asking questions on StackExchange? because she learned faster from you. because you listened and care and saw what she was missing out. > Email was foreign to one, let alone learning how to use a > sophisticated "power user" program. So far, I agree your grandmother shouldn't have any interest for vim or mutt. I was talking about communities of people who can take benefit of learning generic tools like vim because of their intense daily usage. As you said: there are tradeoffs. > different way to edit, making it a challenge for some learners) and > the lack of free material that spells out, slowly and painfully, how > to get from "what is email" to "digital control." Again a very interesting point you point out! thank you so much for this thread. Agree but yet: the textarea of your thunderbird is to edition what StackExchange is to community: we can have so much better by investing in it and the end user have *no idea*. I don't count the times I used some simple vim stuff to edit files in front of people telling me that they just ignored an editor could be *that* powerful. I don't want my mum to learn vim because it's not worth for her but I'm so sad for so many colleages of mine who seems happy with web based textareas (engineers, researchers, students …). > I frankly believe in and wish for you all to have control over your > digital lives. Situated software, retaining control of your data, > etc., are all great things. > > Do what you can to make that easier for the rest of the world, please. I do! I'm now payed for that and I run a workshop every tuesdays on the campus were anyone can come with there problems, questions or dream of a better setup and we provide assistance. I also gave talks, mostly in french, about digital substainability and convivialism (in a Illich way) and I'm involved in local groups promoting selfhosting, floss and unix cultures. Thank you so much for the time you spent because you made me realize we can improve the pedadogy around the convivialism. regards -- Marc Chantreux Pôle CESAR (Calcul et services avancés à la recherche) Université de Strasbourg 14 rue René Descartes, BP 80010, 67084 STRASBOURG CEDEX 03.68.85.60.79 -- -- You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist. Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to. For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "vim_use" group. 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