Tara, yet again you are misrepresenting my comments. In saying that Apple has chosen to be a screen reader company, I am not saying they shouldn't have, and I think I made that very clear. Like many people on this list, my life is enriched every day by the fact that Apple has chosen to be a screen reader company. And you can find many books and blog posts I've written, as well as media interviews I've done, where I make this point. I am saying, however, that they should be held to no lesser standard than any other screen reader company. When Apple developed their own Maps app in iOS 6, this made them a navigation company. They blew it, big time, consumers objected, and Apple made a course correction. That's because, quite rightly, consumers held Apple to the same standard that they did other maps providers. Let me reiterate that I don't beleive a notetaker is the best choice in all situations. A good PC or Windows tablet will be far cheaper, and in some cases, far better, for many people.
Jonathan Mosen, Mosen Consulting Blindness technology information, eBooks and training http://Mosen.org > On 21/06/2015, at 4:19 pm, TaraPrakash <[email protected]> wrote: > > All the points about the utility of Braille are well taken, Jonathan's > concern about survival about Braille, and that those who know Braille are > more successful in employment field is also agreeable to me (Even if I am not > sure the source of this statistics that Jonathan quoted in his response > addressed to me..) > The problem for me is his assertion that Apple has decided to become a screen > reader company etc .... What I read in that comment is a suggestion that > Apple shouldn't have ventured in to providing screen support as there are > specialists for it. That somehow the assistive technology specialist > companies > are doing a better job for promotion of braille than apple. So, here is my > suggestion for humanware and freedom scientific who are likely to listen to > Jonathan, whose work with those companies has been commendable; and these > companies hardly face any resolution against them in the conventions of > blindness organizations who represent the blind. Let Freedom Scientific and > Humanware make the braille note takers at the same price as the price of > their note takers without braille. Voice sense, voice note and Packmate > without Braille display sell for around 3500. with braille option they sell > close to 6500. Why that extra price for Braille? Is it acceptable at all to > have these devices without braille as they are meant for the purpose of the > blind and it has been established that blind are more successful if they > learn braille? Even if they well their devices without Braille, is it > acceptable that they charge so much extra for their Braille note takers? I > would like some comments on that. > Now, you may say that it's okay charge me extra but give me a better braille > support but I am not sure if that will be acceptable to those who seem to > speak for all of us with regard to braille. > I am sorry I do not want to cause any debate about this issue on this list, > but when someone linked with blindness "speciality" devices and software > suggest that if apple has come in to screen reading support , it has to be > perfect, I find myself very skeptical about the added justiification about > survival of braille and literacy etc. True apple's braille support is not > perfect, but it will be wrong to assume that a dedicated note taker is going > to perform any better for you than an I device with a braille display. > braille note takers are improving but they are not still the paragons of > perfection. the makers of those devices claim that they are fully functional > computers, those who have those note takers know that they are anything but. > They are still slow, clunky and love to hang from time to time. I would > suggest to schedule a meeting with an organization that sells these note > takers, and work on them for an hour or so. make sure to try their web > browser, and their capacity to play large books. and then decide about > purchasing a dedicated note taker. > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jun 20, 2015, at 10:29 PM, denise avant <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Hello all, >> Sometimes I wonder if just because we ask Apple to provide better Braille >> display support, people think we are unnecessarily critical of Apple. I am >> forever grateful to Apple for building in accessibility to all of its >> products. What Apple has done over the last six years is positively >> wonderful. I never thought I’d be able to do so many things with a visual >> device, and pay the same price as everyone else. But that does not mean >> that blind people cannot and should not point out a flaw and demand better >> in a product. I listen to other podcasts having nothing to do with >> accessibility and Apple, and the sighted community is not hesitant to say >> when something needs to work better. >> If one of the screen reader companies fails to provide proper Braille >> display support in Windows, those of us, who use Windows are all over the >> company. Requesting good Braille input and output on an Apple device is not >> a ridiculous one. apple is the only one who can make the braille display >> support better. I don’t know if Apple cannot or will not make the Braille >> experience better. But voiceover belongs to apple, and I applaude those who >> are willing to stand up and ask for better. >> Jonathan talks about the children all of the time. But blind adults need to >> be literate as well. >> Perhaps people have their own reasons for wanting to simply rely on speech >> output. but I know there are times when people who cannot see well enough to >> read the screen need to use Braille. >> If someone has a hearing impairment in addition to blindness, then a Braille >> display with an Apple device may be essential to using the device. >> Also, there may be times when you need to read and write Braille without >> disturbing others or having the constant feedback of the speech. >> >>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 2:35 PM, TaraPrakash <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Yet, this is the majority opinion. Some people may be more worried about >>> braille which is a good thing to have as an option. and blind children must >>> have the option to learn braille. but somehow it's apple's responsibility >>> to keep the braille alive, is disingenuous in my opinion. your 6,500 device >>> is not fast or durable or efficient enough even for the blind as apple >>> devices have become. those who work in the field of assistive devices have >>> their vvested interest in bringing in the braille issue with some emotions >>> about survival and identity. >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 2:17 PM, Alex Hall <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> What I've found is that I don't need braille output at all. Please >>>> understand this is *my* opinion and situation, and I kknow everyone's is >>>> different. I'm not telling you what you should do, just offering my >>>> observations, for what they're worth. >>>> >>>> I used a notetaker in school and college, but slowly used it less and >>>> less. Today, I use a Macbook Air and iPhone for everything. Sure, >>>> sometimes it's not quite as efficient at certain things, but it more than >>>> makes up for that in the app selection and raw horsepower. Plus, the >>>> efficiency offered by Dropbox, iCloud, Handoff, and other cloud services >>>> can't be forgotten; sure, typing your notes into a notetaker might be a >>>> few seconds faster, but you'll have to spend more time syncing up those >>>> notes to your computer later. With my setup, I can type notes on either >>>> device and have them appear instantly on the other, and with braille >>>> screen input or Mbraille on iOS, I can do it in braille. >>>> >>>> A lot of it comes down to what you'll need and how you operate. As you >>>> said, the central problem is that a display plus an iOS device is cheaper, >>>> more modular, more powerful, and more versatile. However, a dedicated >>>> notetaker is more efficient, for certain tasks, and can more easily be >>>> used on the go or in noisy situations. Unfortunately, there's no perfect >>>> solution to the problem right now. >>>>> On Jun 20, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Joe <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Jonathan, >>>>> >>>>> Excellent blog post as always. Only, while I agree children are crucial, >>>>> adult professionals should receive equal consideration. I was beginning >>>>> to lean toward using a Braille display with an iDevice as a viable >>>>> solution, but your points give me pause. I need to be able to be as >>>>> productive as I can be using Braille on a dedicated notetaker. The apps >>>>> on the more sophisticated Braille Sense are great but still limited. That >>>>> means I could go for a compromise, purchasing one of the awkward hybrids >>>>> like the Braille Edge or VarioUltra, but it doesn’t seem as though I >>>>> could fully harness the horse power of the iDevice if the interaction >>>>> between display and iOS is efficient. Any further thoughts welcomed. My >>>>> point here isn’t to stir up a debate of notetakers versus displays. I >>>>> need to be productive on the move. A full notetaker can be >>>>> cost-prohibitive. A display doesn’t seem to be the most efficient option. >>>>> LOL I thought we’d made a little more progress. >>>>> >>>>> Joe >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Musings of a Work in Progress: >>>>> www.JoeOrozco.com/ >>>>> >>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>> >>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On >>>>> Behalf Of Jonathan Mosen >>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:32 AM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Re: Replacing Braille Notetaker with iDevice >>>>> >>>>> Hi Joe, I want to address your question about Braille input in iOS. In my >>>>> view it is not fit for purpose. I don't know what it is about Braille >>>>> input Apple doesn't get, whether the blind people they consult with about >>>>> these things aren't Braille users, or what the deal is. They have the >>>>> financial and technical resources to fix the issues if they were of a >>>>> mind to, but sadly it appears we are going to see another major release >>>>> of iOS without appropriately robust Braille input being available. >>>>> As you know, some manufacturers have chosen to do Apple's work for them, >>>>> and work around the woeful Braille input in iOS by keeping text in a >>>>> buffer, then sending it to iOS all at once. I guess this is a pragmatic >>>>> response, but it also let's Apple off the hook. Apple is a mainstream >>>>> technology company, but they have also made the choice to be a screen >>>>> reader company, and I don't believe they should be held to any lesser >>>>> standard than any other screen reader company. >>>>> They are receiving awards and praise and I don't begrudge them any of it. >>>>> It is well deserved. But those of us who are passionate about not just >>>>> the spread of Braille, but the very survival of Braille, need to stand up >>>>> and be counted. >>>>> There's no doubt that notetaker products can no longer keep up with the >>>>> phrenetic pace of technology, if they ever really could. So just in terms >>>>> of the range of things that can be done, getting an iThing is probably a >>>>> better bet than a notetaker. And some adults may well be confident enough >>>>> in their Braille skills to work around the shortcomings in Apple's >>>>> Braille input. >>>>> What really concerns me though is the kids, and in this case I believe >>>>> notetakers will have a place unless and until Apple get it together when >>>>> it comes to Braille input. >>>>> I am pasting below a blog post I wrote a couple of years ago called "The >>>>> Apple Braille Crisis, it's got to be fixed for the kids". While some >>>>> minor changes were made in iOS 8, it is mostly still relevant. Here it is. >>>>> People from all walks of life, not just blind people, can get extremely >>>>> partisan about their technology preferences. Anything their team does is >>>>> unquestionably wonderful, while anything another company does is rubbish, >>>>> simply by virtue of the fact that it’s the other guys who did it. If you >>>>> criticise the company such people support, you’ve committed heresy. >>>>> As blind people, I don’t believe we have the luxury of being so childish. >>>>> Unemployment is high. Misconceptions abound regarding how capable we can >>>>> be in the workplace, and in society as a whole. We need to be open to all >>>>> solutions, and where possible, use the best mix of technology we can to >>>>> be as productive, functional and self-reliant as we can. >>>>> To be clear, I have enormous admiration for the way Apple has changed the >>>>> game in assistive technology. When they released VoiceOver in 2009, I was >>>>> concerned that Apple might do just enough to get people off its back >>>>> regarding the inaccessibility of the iPhone. But that has not been the >>>>> case. With every release, Apple has added tangible enhancements such as >>>>> alternative forms of input, innovative ways for us to use the camera, and >>>>> so much more. So Apple’s commitment to accessibility is real, its >>>>> ongoing, and it has earned enormous praise and respect. >>>>> Is there a “but” coming? Yes, there is, actually., because being grateful >>>>> for a product doesn’t mean we don’t have rights as paying consumers to >>>>> point out where a product falls short. But more than that, if Apple’s >>>>> innovations risk killing off a category of product, and the literacy of >>>>> our kids is threatened, we have a moral obligation to speak up >>>>> constructively and ask Apple to engage with us as a community about >>>>> fixing the issue. >>>>> The Internet is buzzing with reports of bugs in iOS 7. I’m not unduly >>>>> concerned about most of these, because I believe the majority of them >>>>> will come out in the wash. iOS 7 was a massive refactoring of the OS. I >>>>> hope that there’ll be fixes released steadily across the coming year. >>>>> However, I am deeply troubled by Apple’s ongoing apparent failure to >>>>> understand what constitutes Braille support of an appropriate quality. >>>>> We’re not talking bugs in this case, we’re talking a fundamental user >>>>> interface failure – a feature not fully fit for purpose. >>>>> Since Braille was introduced in iOS, it has supported contracted Braille >>>>> in English markets. This is a means by which space is saved, and speed >>>>> increased, by using a series of symbols and abbreviations. When one reads >>>>> contracted Braille in iOS, it works quite well. When one writes it, it is >>>>> the worst implementation of contracted input I’ve ever used on any device. >>>>> Since its inception, if you input a letter in contracted Braille which >>>>> would be the abbreviation for a word if surrounded by spaces, iOS expands >>>>> the word it represents if you pause for a short time before inputting the >>>>> next character. For example, write “p” and it will quickly be expanded to >>>>> the word “people”. If you are proofing a document you’ve brailled and >>>>> wish to insert a letter in the middle of a word, you must preface the >>>>> letter with a letter sign, dots 5-6, to prevent it from being expanded. >>>>> This is not in accordance with the Braille code and is simply wrong. >>>>> Apple must surely know about this poor implementation. It’s been talked >>>>> about in many forums, including an excellent presentation by Judy Dixon >>>>> at the CSUN Technology Conference on Persons with Disabilities. I, and >>>>> I’m sure others, have also raised it. >>>>> It’s also evident that Apple knows about the issues, because to its >>>>> credit, it appears to at least have made an effort to try and fix the >>>>> problem in iOS 7. It now offers an “Automatic Braille Translation” >>>>> toggle. This feature is so below par compared with most of the design of >>>>> all other VoiceOver features, that it must surely be the case that Apple >>>>> is getting no advice, or poor advice, from anyone actually using Braille >>>>> in their daily life. >>>>> When you toggle “Automatic Braille Translation” off, you can take as long >>>>> as you wish when inputting characters, and they’re not back-translated. >>>>> Isn’t that what we want? Well yes, it would appear to be a step in the >>>>> right direction. Except when you use it, you find that Braille is not >>>>> readable on the display until you either press the space bar, or dots >>>>> 4-5-cord. Why Apple believes this is acceptable, I have no idea. Can you >>>>> imagine a sighted person finding it acceptable in any other scenario >>>>> other than password entry, to not be able to look at what they’re >>>>> entering until they press “Space”? >>>>> But it’s worse than that. If you backspace over what you’ve typed, you >>>>> run into back-translation issues similar to those experienced when >>>>> automatic translation is set to on. >>>>> Additionally, having to press dots 4-5-cord after inserting a letter in >>>>> the middle of a word is counterintuitive, and again, an implementation >>>>> far more primitive than anything else that offers contracted input. Apple >>>>> seems to have implemented a pretty crude buffer, that is simply dumped >>>>> when you type one of two commands to empty it. That is not a solution. >>>>> The Braille implementation in iOS does not meet the “it’s intuitive and >>>>> it just works” test that has been the hallmark of Apple products >>>>> including VoiceOver. >>>>> Now if it were just about us as Braille reading adults, I wouldn’t bother >>>>> writing this post. It would get on my nerves, but I’d continue to work >>>>> around it and just put it down to a bizarre, less than optimal >>>>> implementation. I’m not writing this for me. I’m not asking blind people, >>>>> and the world’s consumer organisations, to come together on this for me >>>>> or people like me. I’m writing this for the kids. It’s the kids who >>>>> matter. >>>>> If you’re a Braille user, you’ll have seen the implementation of Nemeth >>>>> in iOS 7. It’s there because Apple’s going after the education market, >>>>> particularly in the US. Good for Apple. I can see enormous benefit in a >>>>> kid being given an iPad and a Braille display for use at home and in >>>>> school. Don’t underestimate how mainstream tech can be a great way to >>>>> help blind kids blend in with sighted kids. Parents feel more empowered, >>>>> because the iPad is technology they know and understand, so when the >>>>> child gets in trouble at home, they can help out. Classroom teachers in >>>>> mainstream schools know what an iPad is as well and feel similarly >>>>> empowered. >>>>> But all of these benefits have to be secondary considerations to the one >>>>> that matters above all else, – equipping our kids with good Braille >>>>> literacy skills. Braille is their ticket to higher education. Braille >>>>> offers a greater chance of gainful employment. Braille is absolutely >>>>> critical, and Braille is not to be trifled with. Half-baked Braille >>>>> solutions are not appropriate for our kids when there’s a crisis in >>>>> getting Braille instruction to them already. >>>>> We should not expect our kids to have to learn to work-around Apple’s >>>>> poor implementation, we should expect Apple to fix its Braille. >>>>> For the last 20 years or so, blind kids have increasingly used >>>>> proprietary notetaker technology. I’ve no problem whatsoever with >>>>> technology moving on, and a category of product becoming obsolete. I love >>>>> the idea of investing in a good Braille display that will last you for >>>>> years, and upgrading the technology that drives the display on a more >>>>> regular basis. But that technology has to do the Braille properly. >>>>> There are cost savings to be made by cash-strapped agencies who purchase >>>>> equipment for blind children, and that’s also why I’m writing this post. >>>>> I can see bean-counters concluding that the combination of an iPad and a >>>>> Braille display is a good solution for kids now. Many of these purchasers >>>>> are not Braille users themselves, and I believe we have a duty of care to >>>>> our kids to spread the word that Apple is not there yet. It is trying, >>>>> and should be applauded for doing so, but still, it’s not there. >>>>> You will remember the huge backlash caused by the initial release of >>>>> Apple Maps in iOS 6. In terms of fitness for purpose, Apple Maps was far >>>>> superior at release than Braille is now. The only difference is that >>>>> Braille affects a tiny fraction of Apple’s user-base, not hundreds of >>>>> millions of people. >>>>> Lest anyone think I’m whining without a solution, I actually know a lot >>>>> about this subject, having worked as a product manager with a range of >>>>> products that use contracted Braille. I have a good feel for where Apple >>>>> has got it wrong and what it might do to fix it, while not of course >>>>> being familiar with the VoiceOver code. But I am absolutely confident >>>>> that it’s fixable. Let’s not forget, Apple invented a way for blind >>>>> people to make effective use of touch screens. Apple gave us unimagined >>>>> access to taking photos. It is certainly not beyond Apple to look at best >>>>> practice and figure this one out, because unlike some of the other things >>>>> it’s done, the solutions already exist. >>>>> If this poor-quality support had been offered to us by an assistive >>>>> technology company, we’d have jumped all over it long before now. But >>>>> given that Apple develops screen readers, that makes it both a mainstream >>>>> technology company, and an assistive technology company. We should hold >>>>> it to no less a standard. >>>>> Having outlined the problem, here’s what I think needs to happen. >>>>> Typically, I’d suggest that Apple needs to engage with the community with >>>>> a view to fixing these issues for the sake of our kids, but that’s not >>>>> really been its style. It is secretive by nature. In that case then, it >>>>> needs to buy the expertise to make Braille truly viable in the education >>>>> market. >>>>> As Braille readers, we need to politely articulate the problems to Apple, >>>>> and let Apple know we consider it important that they are fixed. >>>>> Consumer organisations should do what they’ve done so many times before, >>>>> and focus on their unity when it comes to Braille issues. A >>>>> broad-coalition of consumers, educators and parents needs to ensure this >>>>> issue is not allowed to drop. >>>>> And finally, no one in charge of any purse strings should consider it an >>>>> appropriate solution to give a kid an iPad in the classroom if they’re a >>>>> Braille user. If purchasers want to move away from the blindness >>>>> notetaker, and I get that, a laptop and Braille display is a far better >>>>> solution in terms of Braille reliability and consistency. >>>>> I’ll be the first to cheer loudly, and sing Apple’s praises, if it fixes >>>>> its Braille. And I’ll continue to praise all it has done right, which I >>>>> often do in media interviews and blindness tech forums. But please, for >>>>> the sake of the kids, lets do what we need to do to advocate for good >>>>> quality Braille on Apple devices. We have a duty to the next generation >>>>> to do no less. >>>>> I’ve done what I can as an individual to make Apple aware of these >>>>> failings, but clearly, we need to do more to help it gain an appreciation >>>>> of why this is so important. >>>>> >>>>> Jonathan Mosen >>>>> Mosen Consulting >>>>> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training >>>>> http://Mosen.org >>>>> >>>>>> On 20/06/2015, at 9:24 am, Joe <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, I'm curious to hear from people who have replaced their Braille >>>>>> notetaker with an iDevice. I've been toying with the idea of investing >>>>>> in a >>>>>> U2 for reading books, taking notes and performing similar quick tasks. >>>>>> >>>>>> Questions: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. I've heard there are displays that let you type text and then send to >>>>>> the >>>>>> iDevice in one burst. I don't understand the mechanics of this, but what >>>>>> are >>>>>> the displays you know that do this? >>>>>> >>>>>> 2. Is Braille input in iOS as dreadful as some people have made it out to >>>>>> be? I don't mind learning various keystrokes, but I do mind delays in >>>>>> transmition. >>>>>> >>>>>> 3. Is there a means to read BRF in iOS? >>>>>> >>>>>> 4. What 32-cell display would you personally recommend? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks guys for any help. >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Musings of a Work in Progress: >>>>>> www.JoeOrozco.com/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the viphone >>>>>> list. All new members to the this list are moderated by default. 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If you >>>>> have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you >>>>> feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or >>>>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. The archives >>>>> for this list can be searched at >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. >>>>> --- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "VIPhone" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Have a great day, >>>> Alex Hall >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> The following information is important for all members of the viphone >>>> list. All new members to the this list are moderated by default. 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