Indeed. Apple often touts accessibility as a priority which I’m not even 
disputing, but this is one of those things that highlights the fact that there 
are priorities and then there are priorities…

> On Oct 12, 2019, at 6:20 PM, Sieghard Weitzel <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Mark, please forgive my language, but what you said about Apple not being 
> able to anticipate this issue is nonsense because it's been going on 
> throughout the beta cycle and was reported by many beta testers.
> I'm happy you don't have this issue, but I think you are in the minority here.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of M. 
> Taylor
> Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 5:51 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: To Upgrade or not to Upgrade, that is the Question
> 
> Hello Carolyn, et al:
> 
> You know, I've been puzzling over this ever since I updated my 8 Plus to the 
> latest version of iOS and purchasing an iPhone 11; both having never lost 
> VoiceOver as the result of any activity.  With the rare exception of some 
> VoiceOver display bleed-through errors, described in previous posts, I never 
> use any of my Apple devices without VoiceOver and yet, try as I may, I cannot 
> reproduce the loss-of-VoiceOver glitch with or without earphones, of any 
> type, attached.
> 
> Did you know that not all iPhones are created equal?  There are several 
> different models referred to by the same device name.  Also, in the United 
> States at least, the type of carrier used can, in fact, have an impact on 
> device performance.  For example, several years ago there was a VoiceOver 
> display driver bug that only affected certain iPhones sold by certain 
> manufacturers.  Moreover, if memory serves, iPhones older than the 7 series 
> would have 1 of 2 different modems installed, based on certain factors.  My 
> point, regardless of the name used, not all iPhones are identical, in terms 
> of hardware.
> 
> Again, at present, this is just a guess as Apple never admits to hardly 
> anything until it has been resolved but I suspect that those having this 
> problem, or the reverse, those like me, who are not having this problem, can 
> attribute it to the device type that is being used.
> 
> For example, and again, this is just a guess so don't take issue, I make it a 
> practice to pay full price for SIM-free models of any Apple device, only.  
> The SIM-free model is one that is generally sold outside of the US but can, 
> upon request, be purchased inside the US, as well.
> 
> I was told, by an Apple employee, that all iPhone 11 series phones are now 
> SIM-free unless the purchaser elects not to pay full price for the phone, up 
> front.  I do not know how true this is as I am certain that when one 
> purchases a device directly from a carrier, the device is most certainly not 
> SIM-free.
> 
> While I am certain that Apple will resolve this loss-of-VoiceOver issue, the 
> fact that it even exists suggests to me that they did not or could not 
> anticipate this problem on their in-house models, said models most likely 
> being the purist of the pure where software and hardware installs are 
> concerned.
> 
> Mark
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of 
> Carolyn Arnold
> Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 6:08 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: To Upgrade or not to Upgrade, that is the Question
> 
> Yesterday, I lost speech, even Bluetooth did not get it for me - phone would 
> not ring, only vibrate. We did reboot, turned off then back on. Finally, I 
> called Apple Accessibility. We worked and worked again, finally turned off, 
> back on, got it. She asked if she could screen share, did, checked About for 
> my model information, said she would submit my second complaint with regard 
> to VoiceOver. I told her I was out of the house, had the problem for hours, 
> couldn't even get Siri. I wish I knew a work around, just to keep it from 
> happening again. 
> 
> I do like Call Silencer, but would give it up to stabilize VoiceOver. 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Carolyn 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of 
> dani pagador
> Sent: Friday, October 11, 2019 9:54 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: To Upgrade or not to Upgrade, that is the Question
> 
> For as much as I complained about VO dropping out after phone/FaceTime calls, 
> I'm really glad I did the upgrade to the IOS13. I got a call that went to 
> voicemail this morning that was a SSA scam that said my number would be 
> suspended due to fraudulent activity, that I would be arrested, and to kindly 
> press 1 (I'm not kidding) for more information. I was able to use the 
> voicemail recording and the info VO provided to give an accurate account of 
> the call to the FTC when I filed my complaint with them after the call came 
> in.
> 
> Yay, Apple.
> 
> Do the upgrade. Just have a pair of wired earbuds handy to get VO back if it 
> kicks out after a call. I hung up just a few minutes ago from a call (without 
> being plugged in), and lost speech but still had sound--I could hear the 
> clicks as I swiped right and left. I grabbed my wired earbuds, plugged in, 
> and VO was back.
> 
> HTH,
> Dani
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 10/10/19, M. Taylor <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Hello Angie and Everyone,
>> 
>> You know, I must say that while I was planning on waiting for a later 
>> version of iOS 13.x to be released, before updating my 8 Plus, I am 
>> definitely glad that I went ahead and took the proverbial plunge.
>> This is to say that I have gained much more than I lost.
>> 
>> Now keep in mind that I have yet to experience any loss of VoiceOver 
>> under any circumstances.  Also, while I do read some email messages 
>> via iPhone, I read most of my emails on either my Windows PC or my Mac 
>> so cannot speak to any problems with the native iOS Mail app.
>> 
>> I absolutely love the new system-wide hap tic VoiceOver feedback 
>> feature.  I think the latest versions of Maps is incredible, 
>> especially the new E.T.A feature.  However, what I like most about iOS 
>> 13.x and by the same token, iPad OS 13 is the fact that now, as it was 
>> many, many moons ago, all of my ripped DVD videos play perfectly on 
>> all of my Apple devices.  This was certainly not the case in iOS 12 
>> and earlier.  I am glad that Apple relinquished its death grip on the 
>> types of videos it would and would not allow to be played on Apple 
>> devices, in the hope of getting customers to purchase / rent videos from the 
>> iTunes Store.
>> 
>> Oh, one more thing, while I am a heavy user of Braille using the 
>> original Focus 40 Blue, as yet, I have not attempted to read any 
>> lengthy pieces on my Braille display so cannot speak to any issues regarding 
>> Braille displays.
>> 
>> I can tell you, however, that while I adore the new dark mode on my 
>> iPad Pro, I have elected not to engage this new feature on my 8 Plus.  Why?
>> Well, the display seems to be too dark for my taste on the smaller 
>> display and I find it easier to toggle Invert Display on and off, as 
>> needed with the Home button.
>> 
>> On the iPhone 11, however, given that there is no longer a Home 
>> button, I do engage Dark mode, using the side button to Toggle 
>> VoiceOver on and off, as needed.  As yet, I have not experienced a 
>> loss of VoiceOver before, during, or after calls, of any kind.
>> 
>> I am of the opinion that iOS 12 with Watch OS 5 work much better, 
>> together, than iOS 13 with Watch OS 6, especially where Bluetooth 
>> audio switching is concerned; at least, this has been my experience so far.
>> 
>> Still, all of my "must-have" apps work as expected and I have yet to 
>> encounter any show-stoppers in iOS 13.x, so far.
>> 
>> So, if you have not yet updated to iOS 13.x yet, wait a little longer 
>> before doing so but if you're ready to jump in and begin sending 
>> Apple, along with third-party developers, bug reports as you encounter 
>> them, go ahead and make the leap as we can use all of the proverbial 
>> voices we can get in order to get the attention of all of the 
>> developers to resolve various iOS 13.x issues.
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
>> Behalf Of Angie Nutt
>> Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2019 3:36 AM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: To Upgrade or not to Upgrade, that is the Question
>> 
>> The only thing stopping me from upgrading is the losing sound when 
>> ending a call thing; would hate that to happen when out alone.
>> Otherwise I’m looking forward to getting my hands on iOS 13
>> 
>> All the best
>> Angie
>> 
>> 
>>> On 9 Oct 2019, at 18:58, Louise Johnson <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi I also am waiting to update. Yes there are ones of you who are 
>>> doing it and sharing the bugs with Apple and I thank you for that. I 
>>> just not a person who wants any problems only a few years in and just 
>>> want tech to work all the time. Louise and princess Kiara
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On 
>>> Behalf Of Joshua Hendrickson
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 9, 2019 8:00 AM
>>> To: [email protected]
>>> Subject: Re: To Upgrade or not to Upgrade, that is the Question
>>> 
>>> My Iphone 8 is running 12.41 and I'm not upgrading until some of 
>>> these major bugs are getting fixed.  I only had one reminder about 
>>> the update yesterday.  I also found remind me later and just for 
>>> referrence, don't enter in your passcode if you're prompted for it.
>>> My iPhone 8 is working just fine, and I see no need to update at this 
>>> time.  I'm so glad I got on this list so I can be warned about things 
>>> like major bugs and so on.  Granted, I don't really use my phone to 
>>> check email, but I really don't like the thought of voiceover 
>>> shutting down after a phone call.  Until that is fixed for sure, I'm 
>>> not upgrading.  I'd recommend not to update just yet.  A lot of my 
>>> friends are also waiting to update as well.
>>> 
>>>> On 10/9/19, Susie Stageberg <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Good morning all.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> My iPhone 7S came up and offered me the upgrade last night. I tapped 
>>>> on "later" and then "disagree", I hopes this would make it leave me 
>>>> alone for a while. From reading all the posts on this list (and
>>>> elsewhere) about people having a hard time with this upgrade, it 
>>>> occurred to me that it might be a good idea to hold off until they 
>>>> get some of this stuff fixed. I am running along very nicely with
>>>> 12.2 and I'm one of those who does not need the latest and greatest 
>>>> just because it's the latest and greatest.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Is this an ostrich move? Am I deluded in thinking that by delaying I 
>>>> will get a better product when I do upgrade? And how long do I play 
>>>> the ostrich?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Susie
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." -Eleanor 
>>>> Roosevelt
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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