Ah, now it’s your turn, Grant! lol! You sent a better and much more detailed response than I did.
Nicely done. Well said. :) Cheers! Cara > On Mar 31, 2024, at 2:47 PM, Grant Hardy <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Arnold, > > None of these would happen. Nothing that dramatic would occur. What Apple > could do is simply reject their update and tell them to fix the app so > functionality isn't taken away from previous customers. The Apple review team > rejects many new apps and app updates on a regular basis and it's not a big > deal. Devs just implement the required changes and then they're good to go. > Alternatively, if the code is already live with the update released last > week, Apple could pull the app from the store until they fix it, especially > since the change was undocumented until you installed the update. > > However it's also possible that this will fly under Apple's radar or that > they'll choose to not act. Even though this clearly doesn't jive with my > reading of the guidelines, subscription models are all over the place and I > think a lot of this type of behaviour flies under the radar. The review team > doesn't catch everything. > > Of course it's also possible I'm simply reading the guidelines incorrectly. > > Grant Hardy > > > On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 1:38 PM Arnold Schmidt <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> Another thing to wonder about: Suppose Apple investigates and decides that >> their guidelines have been violated. What can Apple do about it that won't >> hurt everybody. They can simply remove VoiceDream from the app store. They >> could sue the developers and end up in court which would probably take years >> to resolve. Apple could issue some update to the IOS which would prevent >> VoiceDream from operating while the issue is resolved.Or, the developers >> could just say, well, to heck with it, we will simply stop supporting the >> thing and go out of business because it isn't worth going to court over. If >> any of these solutions are acurate, we all would end up worse off than if >> Apple just let it go. >> >> Arnold Schmidt >> >> Sent from Arnold's iPhone S E 3 >> >> On Mar 31, 2024, at 3:55 PM, Grant Hardy <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> >> Hi Arnold, >> >> As per your second point, there could still be lots of reasons to get a >> subscription, but they should revolve around new features. The developers >> could release new features on top of the existing app, and if they were >> compelling enough then users would definitely want to subscribe to get >> access to them. >> >> However, as of my understanding of this app, subscriptions shouldn't charge >> for features already bought with different terms. In my case, those features >> include browsing BookShare, adding and reading content, various voices, and >> scanning documents. >> >> As was pointed out in the podcast posted here a few days ago from Jonathan, >> they could also release a completely new app, charge for it monthly, not >> update the previous app anymore, and we could then use the previous app on >> the terms we agreed upon. The issue is releasing an update that disables >> features. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Grant Hardy >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 12:49 PM Grant Hardy <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> Hi Cara, >>> >>> I really appreciate your insight on this and you said it far better than I >>> did. >>> >>> Ultimately, with all of the controversy surrounding the App Store given >>> developments in the EU etc., one thing that everyone usually acknowledges >>> is that the App Store operates within certain guidelines, and those have >>> huge benefits to both users and developers. Some are more asateric, like >>> "please don't modify the status bar or hide system messages etc.". Some are >>> more protective, like the one I quoted (e.g. something like "please don't >>> take away what users previously bought and try to charge for it again"). >>> What I'm throwing out there is that if the App Store is going to be the >>> exclusive place where I can get apps, I'd like developers to follow the >>> guidelines so I can get the functionality and protections the App Store is >>> designed to offer. And I would like a mechanism to report when I believe >>> developers aren’t following what they agreed upon. >>> >>> It's just baffling to me that previous purchases are being intentionally >>> disabled and I'm a little taken aback that the arguments on either side >>> haven't addressed this. If you know of any way to report this to Apple and >>> get a response, I'd certainly love to hear it. >>> >>> I know that this app is used in many schools and universities where money >>> is tight, and while new users have had subscriptions for a few years, it's >>> possible that a high school or university student is still in the system >>> with a perpetual license. What this means is that their app might be >>> disabled around exam time in the school year, possibly without much notice. >>> I can personally attest that the banner was not noticeable to me as a VO >>> user and I only learned about it based on this list. I'm concerned this >>> could impact the very demographics who are best served by this app. But >>> more to the point, I'm questioning whether we truly are getting the >>> protections we thought we were getting by buying from the App Store. When I >>> switched to Apple Music I kept all the songs I'd bought outright, and even >>> if I canceled it I would still keep those songs. This would be like having >>> all my previous purchases taken away as of a certain date. >>> >>> >>> >>> Grant Hardy >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 31, 2024 at 9:06 AM Cara Quinn <[email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> Hi Richard and All, >>>> >>>> Let me state right out front that I am absolutely not sharing any opinions >>>> here on this issue. I’m not really a user of the app so have no horse in >>>> this race. :) >>>> >>>> Having said that though, this doesn’t really fit with what Grant is >>>> saying. One important aspect of this app’s functionality is to allow folks >>>> to add to their library. So in this case, yes, previously purchased >>>> functionality is being removed. >>>> >>>> Also, even though the dev guidelines are guidelines, and thus not >>>> legally-binding, I would absolutely consider contacting Apple, not to >>>> complain, but to simply ask for clarification on this situation. >>>> >>>> As a developer on the App Store, myself, I can’t just do whatever I want >>>> and still be on the store. That is what the guidelines are for. >>>> >>>> If I released an app, and offered a subscription along with a more >>>> expensive lifetime purchase option, should I then be allowed to turn >>>> around a couple of months later and tell all owners of the app that they >>>> all need to move to the subscription? When someone makes a purchase, that >>>> can be seen as a form of contract. This is obviously subject to specifics, >>>> of course, and please, by all means, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. >>>> >>>> I know that the Voice Dream situation has happened over a longer period >>>> than my example above, but in my example, just say that I decided after >>>> three months or so to begin charging everyone a subscription, regardless >>>> of whether they had already purchased the app. Would this be appropriate? >>>> What about if I did this after a month? What about six months? -or a year? >>>> What time frame is appropriate? Does time frame matter? >>>> >>>> In any case, there is a guideline (which Grant quoted) which does seem to >>>> address this. So I would be curious here to see what Apple has to say on >>>> this. >>>> >>>> Regardless, I hope there can be a good and appropriate outcome to this >>>> situation which honors the money that folks have spent and also allows the >>>> Voice Dream team to continue their excellent work! >>>> >>>> Cheers and Happy Easter to those who celebrate! :) >>>> >>>> Cara >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 31, 2024, at 6:26 AM, Richard Turner <[email protected] >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> If you listen to Jonathan's podcast you will learn that after May 1st, >>>>> you will still be able to access everything in your library. Apparentbby, >>>>> you will not be able to add to the library. I think that fits your >>>>> analogy with purchasing a game. >>>>> >>>>> Richard, USA >>>>> “Grandma always told us, “Be careful when you pray for patience. God >>>>> stores it on the other side of Hell and you will have to go through Hell >>>>> to get it.” >>>>> -- Cedrick Bridgeforth >>>>> >>>>> My web site: https://www.turner42.com/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 30, 2024, at 9:41 PM, Grant Hardy <[email protected] >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hey Richard, >>>>>> >>>>>> I absolutely appreciate that the economics of maintaining an app are >>>>>> tricky. >>>>>> >>>>>> However, Apple Developer guideline 3.1.2 clearly states: >>>>>> >>>>>> If you are changing your existing app to a subscription-based business >>>>>> model, you should not take away the primary functionality existing users >>>>>> have already paid for. For example, let customers who have already >>>>>> purchased a “full game unlock” continue to access the full game after >>>>>> you introduce a subscription model for new customers. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This is why, for example, when the Weather Gods app converted to a >>>>>> subscription, existing users (those who already paid for the app) kept >>>>>> the functionality they previously paid for. >>>>>> >>>>>> In this case, it seems like all our purchases (Voice Dream Reader, any >>>>>> purchased voices, Voice Dream Scanner, etc.) are simply going to be >>>>>> disabled. I do have some concerns with that, because it seems like the >>>>>> quoted Apple Developer review guideline states that this shouldn't occur. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't have any concerns about charging a subscription for new users, >>>>>> or charging existing users for updates. But I haven't ever heard of an >>>>>> app that is disabling previously purchased functionality from working at >>>>>> all. Regardless of the PR that this generates, I'm a little unclear how >>>>>> this is in accordance with the Developer Guidelines as quoted above. >>>>>> >>>>>> If it is, I am curious then if it would be reasonable to expect every >>>>>> app purchase we've made on iOS to be disabled then at some point. I'm >>>>>> not talking about apps not being developed anymore and possibly not >>>>>> working anymore given an update to iOS etc.. I am talking about code >>>>>> that specifically tells the app not to recognize your previously >>>>>> purchased license. >>>>>> >>>>>> just some food for thought. Again, I am absolutely sympathetic to the >>>>>> new owners of Voice Dream Reader, but I don't think disabling previous >>>>>> purchases is the appropriate solution. At the moment, I'm working on >>>>>> transitioning my audio content to Downcast. Haven't decided what to do >>>>>> about my text content yet. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you, >>>>>> Grant Hardy >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2024 at 6:01 PM Richard Turner >>>>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>>> I took Dennis’s advice and made a donation to listen to Jonathan >>>>>>> interviewing Kishin Manglani from the Applause Group. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is very much worth listening to. It is fairly long, but it is very >>>>>>> clear that they care very much about their customers and are doing >>>>>>> their best to provide a quality product and adding new features. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The one thing I noticed if you go into the Voice Dream Reader app and >>>>>>> double tap on settings, then on subscription, it brings up the post >>>>>>> titled Pricing Changes for One-Time Purchasers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As you read through that, when you get to the line that says, try the >>>>>>> 14 day trial or something like that, it doesn’t say it is a link or >>>>>>> button, but if you double tap on that, it takes you to the app store >>>>>>> where you can choose to subscribe and get 2 weeks free if you were a >>>>>>> one-time purchaser. I don’t know what you get if you are a new >>>>>>> subscriber. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But signing up this way keeps it fairly simple and familiar since it is >>>>>>> within the app store. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The difference from subscribing through the link through a service that >>>>>>> seems to be called Stripe or something; whatever Jonathan said, the >>>>>>> Applause Group gets a higher cut of the payment than if you go through >>>>>>> the app store. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don’t know if people realize, that whatever price you pay for an app >>>>>>> through the app store, Apple gets a pretty big cut. I think 20 or 30 >>>>>>> percent and the developer gets the rest. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> IN any case, I’ve signed up through the app store. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> They will be offering a monthly option in the not too distant future. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> HTH, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Richard, USA >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "It's no great honor to be blind, but it's more than a nuisance and >>>>>>> less than a disaster. Either you're going to fight like hell when your >>>>>>> sight fails or you're going to stand on the sidelines for the rest of >>>>>>> your life." -- Dr. Margaret Rockwell Phanstiehl Founder of Audio >>>>>>> Description (1932-2009) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My web site: https://www.turner42.com <https://www.turner42.com/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf >>>>>>> Of Dennis Long >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2024 11:47 AM >>>>>>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>> Subject: RE: Please submit feedback to Apple about Voice Dream Reader >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can subscribe to livingly blindfully plus for just 60 American >>>>>>> cents and get access today or wait 3 days. I strongly encourage you to >>>>>>> listen to it. I do think the Voicedream team does care and value our >>>>>>> feedback. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf >>>>>>> Of Michael Irons >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2024 2:45 PM >>>>>>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Please submit feedback to Apple about Voice Dream Reader >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello everybody I believe that we just have to except what do people >>>>>>> with voice dream reader want to do. That developers are totally free to >>>>>>> increase prices or make free apps, paid apps or whatever they feel they >>>>>>> want to do need to do or have to do to make money. Just remember that >>>>>>> Free doesn’t make any money for anybody and, he doesn’t buy anyone’s >>>>>>> lunch. I think we’d all be better served if we could look for something >>>>>>> that does the same things as voice dream reader and it’s either Free or >>>>>>> at least at low cost. It just sounds like the people that work with >>>>>>> voice dream reader are going to do whatever they’re going to do and >>>>>>> they’re not willing to, or able to change their minds. Just trying to >>>>>>> find an alternative would be a lot more productive for everybody than >>>>>>> just talking about not being able to use voice dream reader. I’m just >>>>>>> saying all this whatever it’s worth. For all I know it may not be worth >>>>>>> anything not even a plug penny or a plug nickel. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 29, 2024, at 6:46 PM, Sieghard Weitzel <[email protected] >>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I highly doubt it violates any Apple rules, if a developer decides to >>>>>>> increase the price for their app or to charge something for a >>>>>>> previously free app or to switch to a subscription model then that is >>>>>>> entirely their decision. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf >>>>>>> Of Grant Hardy >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2024 10:17 PM >>>>>>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>>>>> Subject: Please submit feedback to Apple about Voice Dream Reader >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hey guys, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you search for Voice Dream Reader on the App Store, open the page >>>>>>> for the app, and scroll down, there is an option to "report a problem". >>>>>>> Please consider reporting what the developer is doing to Apple. I am >>>>>>> not sure if it violates any developer guidelines, but it sure seems >>>>>>> like it would: selling lifetime licenses with agreed upon terms and >>>>>>> then disabling them. The nature of how the update was released also >>>>>>> didn't give users any warning or opt-out, as the new deadline wasn't >>>>>>> mentioned in the release notes. I think Apple uses these for internal >>>>>>> purposes, and if enough people file reports then they may act upon it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would also recommend leaving a review of the app and mentioning the >>>>>>> upcoming disabling of previously purchased licenses, and how the update >>>>>>> was handled. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I absolutely do not have a problem with developers going the >>>>>>> subscription route, charging for new features and updates, or raising >>>>>>> prices. It's a tough world out there. But I do have serious concerns >>>>>>> about pushing out an update that disables previously purchased licenses >>>>>>> from continuing to work at all and not mentioning that this would >>>>>>> happen in the release notes. I would imagine this will impact many >>>>>>> schools and other educational institutions as well who will rely on >>>>>>> having access to this app at least for the remainder of the school year. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Let's hope we can share with the developer and Apple some constructive >>>>>>> feedback. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Grant Hardy >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone >>>>>>> list. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, >>>>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact >>>>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list >>>>>>> itself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. 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Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you >> can reach Cara at [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> >> The archives for this list can be searched at: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "VIPhone" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/viphone/0DDCB8E8-6CDA-4214-BE19-5600924E9210%40gmail.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/viphone/0DDCB8E8-6CDA-4214-BE19-5600924E9210%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. > > > -- > The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list. > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if > you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or > moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > > Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at: > [email protected]. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at > [email protected] > > The archives for this list can be searched at: > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/viphone/CAAhK5Q-eN-F3r6%3DNcEEaLZA6yqYDOeF1Kp1iZTgri4BHszkGuQ%40mail.gmail.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/viphone/CAAhK5Q-eN-F3r6%3DNcEEaLZA6yqYDOeF1Kp1iZTgri4BHszkGuQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor. Mark can be reached at: [email protected]. Your list owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at [email protected] The archives for this list can be searched at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "VIPhone" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/viphone/2225DFF6-E0E5-4B54-8BBF-46E0D34B5F02%40gmail.com.
