My friend, read the link first and then come and and we'll discuss. Stop
the uninformed speculations. All the things you've said is addressed by the
link. Evidence from Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari is presented. Study it
first lest you look ignorant.
Jojo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; "Vortex-l" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2013 3:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: The Truth about islam and little girls.
At 04:22 AM 1/1/2013, Jojo Jaro wrote:
First, I would like to apologize to the list for posting this despite my
promise not to do so. This is just too important to leave unresolved.
It's always "too important" to keep the promise. The whole farrago of
topics are "too important" not to dwell on.
Jojo has called himself a "turd," i.e, worthless and despicable. That's
his own image of himself. It's a pathology that afflicts many of us,
whether we talk about it or not, it's essentially Satanic, if you know the
story of Satan. Satan speaks to us from "where we do not recognize him"
(Qur'an). I.e., we think it's us, and, of course, we don't lie to
ourselves, do we?
Yes, we do. With training, the lies can be recognized. They will not stop,
apparently, that's just the way it is. But we don't have to *believe*
them. The ancient solution to this dilemma is to trust in reality, to keep
identifying the voice of Satan and trust in reality *in spite of it.* Just
keep trusting. Trust is not a belief, it's an action that is taken, an
action to *stop* believing all the stories that Satan tells. I.e., that
*our brain tells.*
Keeping his word is not important to Jojo because he actually believes
he's a turd. Who cares about the word of a turd, it's absurd?
There is a function to our brain, it's there, and it's necessary, for
survival. Temporary survival. We will not find what endures, only through
listening to and believing that the patterns of neuronal activity that we
experience are "true." They are just patterns, and patterns of patterns.
They can be *useful,* but as soon as we believe they are truth, we are
radically stuck. They just are what they are.
Now, to the point here.
On further googling the terms "bestiality" and "islam", I found this page
which has NOTHING to do with bestiality, but does document islam's
practice with regards to prepubescent little girls.
Getting in trouble again? Looking for stuff to toss, try all kinds of
outrageous search terms. Just to do some research here, I think I'll
Google "Christian bestiality." Wonder what I'll find? This research stuff
is tough work but someone has to do it.
Actually, no. I haven't entered that search and won't. Someone else can
waste their time.
Read it and decide for yourself, whether I or Lomax is lying. The
references are well documented medical and muslims sources, so Lomax can
not say they are biased.
I very much doubt that the pages mention me. I haven't looked yet, but I
can already tell that there is bias present. This may come as a shock to
Jojo, but Muslims are not of one mind on things. Just as Jojo argues, but
not all Christians would believe his arguments, there are "strong
arguments" made that are *made up* by some Muslims. A "scholar" wants to
prove something, so he searches through the body of tradition, and it's
huge, and highly variable in reliability, and finds something that seems
to support his conclusion. He cares not at all for *other conclusions*
that might be drawn from it. He's a bulldog, out to prove *one thing.*
And so you can find all kinds of crap out there, if you search for it.
A couple of points to highlight.
1. A'isha's age at the time of consummation is not in dispute among
muslim scholars. It is well documented and well accepted. She was 9
years old.
That's arguable. I've never denied it is false, except for the "not in
dispute" claim. I've pointed to argument by knowledgeable Muslims that
differ on this. However, I have also, then, considered the case if the
reports are true. The reports do not actually prove "consummation." I
consider it likely, however, that they are about consummation, but the
reports do not establish how the persons --
including Ayesha herself -- knew how old she was.
This is the problem with hearsay evidence, the witness cannot be queried.
*Her age in years was not considered important.* That seems incredible in
today's world, but this wasn't today's world. This was a mostly
non-literate society, with no birth records. Age was not a standard for
*anything,* the present physical and mental condition of a boy or girl
were *everything.* The consent of the wali (a girl's father, in this
case), was *essential*. The wali determines readiness for all aspects
except one, actual sexual maturity. It has been so in *every culture* when
it was pre-literate, and age-based standards only arose in rule-of-law
societies.
So when Ayesha is *reported* as having said (recorded many years later,
after she was dead, by someone else) that she was "nine" when she went to
the house of the Prophet, that is a *report*. Later, the age became
important, as people created "Islamic law." But what is clear from *all
the sources* is that she was sexually mature, in a basic sense. They do
not actually tell us that, but it is so obvious from context that it's
essentially indisputable, and an example was given in what was uncovered
in the discussions, of the adjudicated *rape* of a ten-year-old girl, by
her "husband," purely on account of her not having reached menarche.
That's the "age of consent" in very conservative Islam, and the
*additional consent* of the parents would be necessary.
Because marriage requires the *woman*'s consent, and a woman is not
considered, under normal circumtances, to be *able* to give consent until
menarche, the parent's consent is *not enough*. Presumably the parents did
consent, but *they consented to betrothal, not consummation.* So for the
"husband" to have intercourse with her --
whether it was forcible or not -- was what we call in the U.S. "statutory
rape." She did not have the legal power to consent. Nor would her parents,
if she is not past menarche.
2. There is evidence A'isha was prepubescent when muhammed had
intercourse with her.
Jojo has found such an assertion, on an evangelist Christian web site.
I've just glanced at it, so far, and have not yet researched the sources.
However, it's already obvious that they are taking an argument out of
context, and using it to "prove" something that the actual witness would
be horrified by. It's done by putting together evidence about various
pieces of what must be understood as something between myth and history, a
body of hearsay evidence, and then drawing conclusions, but not in an
unbiased manner, as to preponderance of evidence, but to prove some
pre-determined point.
That is, there is evidence, all right, that, interpreted out of context
and with a set of assumptions about many things, can be used to *argue*
that she was prepubescent. But not when there was intercourse, rather when
she went to the house of the Prophet. That actually tells us *nothing*
about her sexual maturity or emotinal maturity at the time of
consummation, and I've seen no story that actually bears on this,
directly.
3. This practice remains a significant practice in muslim countries to
this day. Read about the muslim cleric in Indonesia.
There are all kinds of practices that happen in the world that are
horrific to this Muslim and to many others, and if there is evidence that
intercourse with prepubescent females is sanctioned by Muslim authorities,
this would be a clear impeachment of those authorities as corrupt. We'll
see what the source actually shows.
It should be understood that there are, on the internet, active "Muslim
clerics" who are promoting highly sectarian ... the technical term is
"bullshit."
4. A little girl's body is in fact not ready for sexual intercourse and
pregnancy at the age of 9.
Humans vary. Jojo has already accepted that there is variation within the
species, and there is also variation due to environmental conditions. No
such statement about readiness can be made, generally. The youngest
recorded mother was apparently five years old, this was modern. She gave
birth by Caesarian section, but it appears that was precautionary, that
was no proof that she could not bear children normally. There are *many*
recorded instances of mothers at 10, which is be adequate to show that
sexual maturity at 9 (ability to conceive and bear) is within human
possibility.
Jojo consistently argues the norm as if it proves that a specific case is
outside the possible range. He continually betrays bias, that his
conclusion is set, and here we can see it in his language, which is not
that of medical report, which would never use the imprecise and inaccurate
term "little." I've seen eight-year-olds who are full-sized. Are they
fully mature? I haven't seen one. Maturity, which is equivalent to the
"natural age of consent," is a combination of sexual maturity, the state
of the body with regard to reproduction and desire for sexual
relationship, and emotional and social maturity, which is a matter of
judgment. In ancient societies, the judgment was exercised by the
guardian, not by rule-of-law with respect to age.
And it's still the same, in fact, what rule-of-law has done is to set
certain limits that require judicial discretion.
Regular ovulation does not start until a significant amount of time after
menses (regularly up to 2 years from the first menses.) Mammary gland
start of development does not start until the first menses.
I pointed to a photo of that five-year old. Developed, pendulous breasts.
Check out the medical references.
I have checked medical references. The body is designed to handle these
situations. Very, very important point: *consent.* This is not the place
for a full exploration of the law of consent, but it's totally neglected
by Jojo et al.
So suppose this is the situation.
1. Age of girl is *unknown*. She's thought to be young, though, let's say
she's thought to be nine. But it's uncertain.
2. Girl has passed menarche.
3. She appears physically mature, not a "little girl."
4. She has her dolls, they are important to her, but her relationship with
them is as is normal for an older girl who still has her childhood dolls.
(I know women who are *past menopause* who still have their dolls. They
pass them on to their children.
5. Her parents consent to marriage.
6. She is emotionally and socially mature.
7. She consents to the marriage and to completion.
Is this girl "marriageable"? If not, when, and how is the society to
judge? Remember, they have no birth records.
Let me add an additional condition. Normal men look at her and see her as
attractive. Remember, they do not know how old she is. We are talking
about possibilities here. If the girl were seen by her society as a
"little girl, immature," the society would have considered the marriage
and consummation as unconscionable, and it is totally apparent that they
did not consider this.
This is what I said with my pig breeding posts that many found to be
too offensive. Now, decide for yourself which of us both is lying.
Pig sexual maturity is no guide as to human sexual maturity, any more than
the sexual maturity of a mouse would be. As to mice, breeding is a complex
process that is triggered by the presence of a male mouse; it's likely
that the human process is somewhat similar. The whole process of normal
sexual attraction is not something that takes place in isolation, it's an
interaction between male and female. A normal male may be attracted, in
some sense, to a prepubescent female, but the complex process that leads
to actual and consensual intercourse does not normally happen. (In modern
American society, some girls are trained to appear sexy, made-up to appear
more mature than they are, trained to move in sexually-attractive ways,
dressed for sexual attractiveness, etc. That says nothing about how they
would appear without all these trappings. We are talking, in the
traditions, about *neighbors.*)
<http://www.answering-islam.de/Silas/childbrides.htm#s4>http://www.answering-islam.de/Silas/childbrides.htm#s4
Please read the link before you call for my banning and decide for
yourself if this practice is acceptable to you. Decide if you will allow
this practice to your 9 year old daughter. Decide which of us both is
lying.
I've now concluded that Jojo should be banned, but what is on that site is
irrelevant to it.
My conclusion is based on his obvious and demonstrated inability to
voluntarily refrain from continuing his highly contentious and off-topic
debates on the list.
Had he merely said something like, "I found this and I think it's relevant
to the question of Ayesha's condition at her marriage, so I want to post
the link, but I will not continue discussion of this here," it could have
technically violated the promise, but would have been far less
objectionable.
"What practice?" Again, I have not done more than scan the anti-Muslim
source. If Jojo is claiming that Muslims condone sex with prepubescent
girls, *under any circumstances*, he's telling not only an untruth, but it
is certainly false about this Muslim. No, I do not condone that *at all.*
So who is lying?
And why is all this on the Vortex list? I'm responding here *because it's
here.*
I am not claiming the site is unbiased, I am claiming that the references
in the site is unbiased. Muslim sources should be acceptable to muslims.
Why? There is no "central authority" that decides what is acceptable to
all Muslims. Jojo is making a radically incorrect assumption, and he's
making it because he wants to tar all of us with the same brush. I'll look
at the source separately.
Instead of saying Lomax has "excellent" research skills, why not just
research the links and references of this site.
I have never recommended that anyone depend solely on my claims, if a
matter is important to them. I provide sources and discuss them. It takes
a lot of work.
Decide for yourself which of us both is lying.
That's the argument of a troll.
Research for yourself before you are "enthralled" by Lomax's lengthy
essays and assume that it is a "well-researched" response.
Most users here are *irritated* by my long essays. A few have read them
and have appreciated them, and they are starting to burn out, themselves.
Enough, already.
Generally, my research is not truly deep. It's what I consider enough for
a decent first impression. Where I have knowledge of a field, my overall
comments might be well-informed. But I also make mistakes.
PS. Note that I have not insulted Lomax in this posts at all. But if he
finds the truth offensive, there is nothing I can do about that.
Jojo thinks all this is about trading insults.
Jojo mentioned me five times in his post.
What do I have to do with the history of this "little girl"? He's implied
that I -- and all Muslims -- would condone child rape. If that is not an
insult, what is?
