Hi Jed Regarding the waste heat, you mentioned that all the waste heat can't be transferred to the water? But surely if the heat source is inside the water tank it can only be transferred to the water. Isn't this how we do calorimetry? As long as the water tank was insulated for 120 deg C and the water or steam flow ensured this temperature was not exceeded I don't see why it would get hotter In the container. But perhaps I miss something simple like the flow rate is not sufficient or something? I suppose other kinds of boilers that have an external furnace for coal of gas this is not the case, as the furnace it self might be much hotter?
Stephen > On 14 mei 2016, at 19:11, Stephen Cooke <stephen_coo...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Jed, > > thanks for your extended reply, I'm also far from being able todo the HVAC > calculations so respect you have an experts input and are better informed > than me about what is possible. > > Thanks also for the link rsbiomass. > > To be fair the pictures of the Bosch plant I think we're for 38 MW or 19 MW > plants, so a little bit bigger than 1MW ;) I guess it also has to vent its > fuel exhaust somehow. > > Of course these kind of boilers also include volume for the fuel burning, I > suppose the most comparable ones for LENR would be electrical. > > I think there are better comparisons in the viessmann link which have smaller > boilers with different fuel including some close to 1MW. > > I take you points about ventilation I'm also a little surprised we don't see > much, but am not enough of an expert to comment. I know electrical kilns I > have been near have been sometimes well insulated outside unless opened some > times other kilns I have been near not so much insulated but I suppose they > were not any where near the 1MW so it's difficult for me to compare. > > Were the industrial heaters you were with before operating at higher > temperatures than 120 degC? > > For further information about boilers that I think is interesting in the > context, here are a couple more links. > > http://www.cleaver-brooks.com/Reference-Center/Resource-Library/Webinars/2014-Webinars/Boiler-Basics--Design-and-Application-Differences.aspx > > http://www.nationalboiler.com/blog/industrial-boilers/4-ways-to-classify-types-of-industrial-boilers/ > > I agree the application is a puzzle, I'm curious to find out what it is some > day. > > Thanks again for your earlier clarifications > >> On 14 mei 2016, at 18:30, Jed Rothwell <jedrothw...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Stephen Cooke <stephen_coo...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Jed, I wonder if I'm missing something? You said a the 1 MW ecat plant >>> would cook people in the warehouse? I'm for sure no boiler expert but I >>> have recently checked on line and if we look at other boilers with other >>> heat sources it seems that steam boilers of MW size are rather typical for >>> industrial applications and are often accommodated in warehouses. The sizes >>> also seem to me to be comparable to the e-cat. >> >> I think the e-cat is smaller than the boilers you showed in the linked >> document. It is a lot smaller than this 1 MW boiler as well: >> >> http://rsbiomass.com/products/urbas-biomass-plant/biomass-boiler-plant/ >> >> The smaller the unit, the more intense the heat inside the shipping >> container. >> >> Regarding this analysis, I am not capable of doing it either. This is what I >> heard from an HVAC engineer who examined the photos of the reactor and the >> warehouse. I cannot describe this in detail, because the analysis is over my >> head, and I do not have the exact numbers. Here is the gist of it: >> >> In a factory using this much process heat, you need large ventilation >> equipment, which is not in evidence. Without that, the room would overheat >> enough to kill the occupants. >> >> A typical use of process heat is for a dry cleaning shop, which uses 10 kW. >> So this is enough heat to operate 100 dry cleaning machines, which is far >> more equipment than you can fit into this building. There are factories with >> 100 times bigger equipment than a dry cleaning shop has, such as carpet >> mills, but those factories are big! >> >> The inside of the shipping container would be like an oven, even with the >> doors wide open. I believe Rossi claims he spent hours inside it. The >> individual generators are wrapped in insulation, but there would still be >> hundreds of kilowatts of waste heat from them. It cannot all transfer to the >> water. Standing inside it would be like sitting on top of a conventional gas >> or electrically fired 1 MW heater, like the one you pointed to here: >> >> http://www.bosch-industrial.com/files/BR_IndustrialBoiler_Beginners_en.pdf >> >> I have been within 10 feet of an 80 kW industrial heater in a factory. You >> cannot get any closer than that. It is like standing next to an open fire. >> If you were thrown against it or held above it, you would be scalded to >> death in no time. >> >> I do not think 1 MW is possible. These considerations reduce the possible >> amount of excess heat, but they do not rule out excess heat. As I recall the >> contract called for 6 times input. This is still plausible, I suppose. >> However, the analysis of data by I.H. and by me (with a smaller dataset) >> rule that out for other reasons. >> >> >>> I didn't get the impression from those sites that they are too hot for the >>> warehouse. >> >> I have been in factories and in ship engine rooms with equipment on this >> scale. The spaces are much larger, or in the case of the engine rooms, the >> ventilation equipment is huge. >> >> Also, operating industrial equipment that uses this much heat makes a lot of >> noise and commotion. I am sure that warehouse is not zoned for anything like >> 100 dry cleaning machines or a carpet mill. >> >> Finally, here is a reality check. Rossi's customer is a listed as a chemical >> distribution warehouse. Do you think a chemical distributor can use enough >> process heat for a good-sized factory? I doubt it! This is implausible, to >> say the least. >> >> - Jed >>
