...a factor of 50 away with lithium batteries.
A factor of 2 is more like it (Li Po is 0.185 kWh/kg, so 0.185 * 300 * 0.45
= 25 kWh)
(You guys are getting all mixed up with your funny units ;)
So Li is nearly ok in this respect but it wouldn't be practical to wait an
hour or so at the filling station, that's the main reason why EEStor's
ultracap would be a dream come true (refills in minutes). Not to mention the
fact that costly Li Po would have to be replaced every few hundred refills
whereas cheaper ultracap lasts a million refills (if it really works).
Michel
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones Beene" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: Ultracapacitor - Not there
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
(C x V^2)/2 = (58 x 15 x 15)/2 = 6525 J = 1.813 Wh
but I've been awake longer and have had 5 green teas. Terry
OK. Let's do some rough calcs. How many kWhs are needed (in the future)
for a Prius-sized vehicle with a 100 mile range?
If we assume that we can reduce the Prius weight to about a ton by
eliminating the gasoline engine and retaining 300 pounds of storage
(baterries, ultracaps or batcaps). I suspect that you will still need
about 50 kWh of total capacity, no? To keep the price under $25,000 this
can cost the manufacturer no more than about $7,000 correct?
...we are still a factor of about 500 away from that possibility with the
ultracaps and a factor of 50 away with lithium batteries. It can be done
with lead acid now - but you would need to lug around an extra half-ton of
them.
OTOH ... EEStor is closer - their eagerly awaited unit weighs 400 pounds,
and is said to deliver 52 kilowatt hours on a fresh charge.
Jones
I was looking back over some old posts - two months ago isn't that old,
and it was the second time I had run across the EEStor rumors coming from
Silicon Valley (where they were funded - the company is in Texas). Even
so, it is clear to see why Daimler, for one, is more concerned in the
short term with diesels than hybrids:
This is from mid-January after the Chicago auto show:
The most vocal challenge against the Prius 'exemplar' of gasoline-electric
hybrid with substantial battery power is coming from DaimlerChrysler,
which thinks diesel engines-sans-batteries are a better overall solution.
I hope that Daimler does not know something about batteries that others
are missing. In fact, this stance of theirs seems like a gigantic tactical
error in light of the analysts at Kleiner Perkins VC (venture capitalists
extraodinaire). No VC investor in the world has been as successful, or as
admired in financial circles - from NY to London to Hong Kong to LA - as
Kleiner Perkins. They are simply the top dog.
To paraphrase Rob Hoff in the article cited below, John Doerr of K-P has
been talking up investments in energy and environmental startups, but he
has never revealed many details EXCEPT ... At a Churchill Club event
yesterday in Palo Alto he and other VCs offered their annual tech
predictions: High on the list is his "highest-risk, highest-reward"
investment.
He didn't mention it by name, but I will - EEStor.
Diesels do get 20 percent to 40 percent better fuel economy than gasoline
engines of the same power at little added cost - and yes they now account
for more than half of all cars sold in Europe. They are claimed to be more
easily adapted to biofuels, supposedly, but that is questionable. Many of
the historical negatives of diesels - such as noise and cold-starts have
been solved. In Europe, diesel fuel is generally cheaper - whereas here,
the opposite seems to be true in recent years.
However, there are now at least 100 well-funded R&D battery projects
worldwide - and although the so-called "one good battery" seems to be as
far away as ever to many observers, including the insiders atDaimler, I
disagree with their assessment. Only a fool (or a company in a poor patent
position) would pass up the chance to use a far better battery as part of
the next step in hybrids. Of course - the obvious question for the next
couple of years, pending that better-battery going into mass production -
is "why not use a diesel in the Prius-type hybrid ?"
Of course this final solution scenario depends on that elusive battery,
and also to a lesser extent on a light carbon body. I have mentioned
EEStor before. They are now in the news again with this blip:
http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/techbeat/archives/2006/01/kleiner_perkins.html
EEStor Inc. is a Cedar Park, Texas startup which has developed a
breakthrough battery technology - only is sounds more like a combination
of UltraCap and/or BatCap. Apparently a prototype factory is under
construction and may now be ready. The company was founded in 2001 by
Richard D. Weir, Carl Nelson, and Richard S. Weir, who have backgrounds as
senior managers at IBM and Xerox, not in automotive nor batteries. If the
prototype plant is actually being finished - as rumor has it - then this
is a huge step forward.
According to "Utility Federal Technology Opportunities," EEStor claims the
battery will be half the cost per kilowatt-hour and one-tenth the weight
of lead-acid batteries. Did you get that ? cheaper than lead-acid per kw
and 1/10 the weight for the same power? Specifically, the anticipated unit
weighs 400 pounds and delivers 52 kilowatt-hours on a fresh charge.
Doesn't sound like that much really, but compare it to what is available.
It definitely fits the minimum requirements of "one good battery"
especially the 10 times less weight per kilowatt-hour.
The technology is basically a parallel plate capacitor with barium
titanate as the dielectric, plus "something else" - but is a ceramic-based
unit. EEStor was supposed to build (in 2005) an assembly line - to produce
and to vet and supply them in modest quantity - and then after they prove
themselves to license the technology for volume production. No one is
talking as to whether that has happened of not.
Selling price would start at $3,200 for low volume and fall to $2,100 in
high-volume production. - about $5+ per pound. Lead acid is less per pound
($1+) but only a tenth as energetic per pound. NiMH is heavier per unit
output and four times costlier for the same power.
But given the recent history of such announcements - I will be the first
to add the necessary caveat: don't get your hopes up too high just yet.
BTW. I am still sticking by the assertion, made a few months ago, that an
even better solution for transportation, not immediate but for the time
frame of perhaps 2008 and beyond - even when the "one good battery" or
"bettery" will be a mass-produced reality... better even than the diesel
Prius hybrid with the EEStor battery, would be a total battery powered
design ... but with a small valveless Wankel as removable (and rentable)
backup for longer trips.
Removable? ... yes, there is no good reason the backup ICE cannot be a 100
pound genset - and an easily removable-backup ...if it is light enough;
and only the Wankel is light enough. Maybe not light enough for Mom... but
before longer trips ... Deiter, down at the garage, can handle it or at
least he can tell Jose and Manuel how to do it in about 10 minutes or so,
the same time it takes for an oil change.
For longer trips, since the Wankel is so light-weight, it can be added
into a small compartment that is otherwise used for storage - or it can be
trailerized! It could even be a rented option - attached with a trailer
hitch -which is never used by many conmutters - those who do not need to
go over 60-100 miles without a recharge.
When you are going on vacation, however, you might swing by the dealer and
have Deiter pop in the backup Wankel, or swing by a rental company and
rent it one a trailer, as the electrical and fuel connections have already
come as a standard packabe, iether on your batter-powered vehicle or with
hookups for the trialer.
This has got to be the best overall answer - batteries for local - and
trailerized (hydrogen or biofuel) engine for occassional longer trips.
Half - or more of all autos could go this route.
