On 7/26/06, RC Macaulay < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Howdy John Berry,Interesting thought regarding parallel lines of force. You may expand on the thought and receive more input form others in the group.
Not sure if Horace Heffner is still on Vort, I decided to email him and rewrote it, anyone not clear on what I was talking about or disagreed, might find this clearer and more conclusive: (though I don't go into the exciting inescapible conclusions)
Hello Horace,
I think you might have left the vortex list, so I'm sending this to you privately because I'd like your answer, I remember you were very knowledgeable of electrodynamics.
The thought goes like this and I promise it leads to something very interesting.
Take a long straight wire (or if you like a very large loop) and put a DC current through it.
The electrons drift in one direction at say 1 meter a second (the speed isn't really important but Bill Beaty made some good arguments that it's about that speed).
So if you ignore all other charges in the universe and wire and consider only the moving charges and and an equal number of stationary protons making the wire.
So as the electrons drift past, the magnetic field they create moves with them creating the motional E-field of Hooper and which the Faraday motor uses to generate a voltage.
If you now start to run against the direction of the electron drift so your running toward the negative battery terminal at 1 meter a second now the electrons are passing you at 2 meters a second and the electromotive force you feel from them (mutually perpendicular to both your motion and the B-field achieved by 'cutting the flux lines' ;) has doubled, however the protons in the wire are also moving from your point of view at 1 meter a second in the same direction as the electrons creating a reverse EMF cancelling the other out so only the difference of 1 meter a second exists.
No matter how fast you move (in the direction against the electron drift) you will never see the radial DC motional e-field get any stronger because the protons will take away any gains.
Do you accept this as true?
If you believe that the induced EMF gets stronger the faster you move then you must hold that the protons don't create a 'magnetic field' that partially cancels out and induces the opposite EMF which would require that you believe that either:
The protons don't create a magnetic field because they aren't moving relative to some local frame, or in other words they aren't moving through the aether but that that aether or reference frame only applies to the establishment of the magnetic field and not the electromotive force felt by moving through the B-field. (although this idea would mean that any EMF applied to a stationary charge which does not move as a result of the EMF would be a unidirectional force not reflected back on the wire/magnet because the stationary charge wouldn't have a magnetic field as it's not moving)
Or I suppose you could possibly hold that the 2 magnetic fields somehow interact (rather than superimposing vectors) they fight it out the stronger wins and is considered 'real' and hence the only one allowed to induce an EMF. (even though in other reference frames the other one is 'real')
I'm not sure if you noticed but neither of those alternatives seem awfully likely. (and that's coming from someone that you might guess believes in an aether)
So I will explain various results of this (they are worth it trust me) after you please tell me if your convinced and if not how you see the EMF increasing as velocity parallel to the wire increases.
I wish to run an experiment to verify this and could use some help with calculating the amps/turns and drift velocities if you are willing.
Thanks,
John BerryI think you might have left the vortex list, so I'm sending this to you privately because I'd like your answer, I remember you were very knowledgeable of electrodynamics.
The thought goes like this and I promise it leads to something very interesting.
Take a long straight wire (or if you like a very large loop) and put a DC current through it.
The electrons drift in one direction at say 1 meter a second (the speed isn't really important but Bill Beaty made some good arguments that it's about that speed).
So if you ignore all other charges in the universe and wire and consider only the moving charges and and an equal number of stationary protons making the wire.
So as the electrons drift past, the magnetic field they create moves with them creating the motional E-field of Hooper and which the Faraday motor uses to generate a voltage.
If you now start to run against the direction of the electron drift so your running toward the negative battery terminal at 1 meter a second now the electrons are passing you at 2 meters a second and the electromotive force you feel from them (mutually perpendicular to both your motion and the B-field achieved by 'cutting the flux lines' ;) has doubled, however the protons in the wire are also moving from your point of view at 1 meter a second in the same direction as the electrons creating a reverse EMF cancelling the other out so only the difference of 1 meter a second exists.
No matter how fast you move (in the direction against the electron drift) you will never see the radial DC motional e-field get any stronger because the protons will take away any gains.
Do you accept this as true?
If you believe that the induced EMF gets stronger the faster you move then you must hold that the protons don't create a 'magnetic field' that partially cancels out and induces the opposite EMF which would require that you believe that either:
The protons don't create a magnetic field because they aren't moving relative to some local frame, or in other words they aren't moving through the aether but that that aether or reference frame only applies to the establishment of the magnetic field and not the electromotive force felt by moving through the B-field. (although this idea would mean that any EMF applied to a stationary charge which does not move as a result of the EMF would be a unidirectional force not reflected back on the wire/magnet because the stationary charge wouldn't have a magnetic field as it's not moving)
Or I suppose you could possibly hold that the 2 magnetic fields somehow interact (rather than superimposing vectors) they fight it out the stronger wins and is considered 'real' and hence the only one allowed to induce an EMF. (even though in other reference frames the other one is 'real')
I'm not sure if you noticed but neither of those alternatives seem awfully likely. (and that's coming from someone that you might guess believes in an aether)
So I will explain various results of this (they are worth it trust me) after you please tell me if your convinced and if not how you see the EMF increasing as velocity parallel to the wire increases.
I wish to run an experiment to verify this and could use some help with calculating the amps/turns and drift velocities if you are willing.
Thanks,
Regarding "missing" e-mail posts and messages, we have been experiencing power outages in key locations in the US like St.Louis. The internet is subject to power outages just like my lightbulbs at home.During the past few months there has been some internet "magic" taking place. I will leave it up to others to speculate and/or identify this magic, be it key location power outage, mid-east rowdy boys playing games or big uncle protecting us from ourselves.Go figure.Richard
On 7/26/06, John Berry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 7/26/06, RC Macaulay <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:Howdy John Berry,Interesting thought regarding parallel lines of force. You may expand on the thought and receive more input form others in the group.
Not sure if Horace Heffner is still on Vort, I decided to email him and rewrote it, anyone not clear on what I was talking about or disagreed, might find this clearer and more conclusive: (though I don't go into the exciting inescapible conclusions)Hello Horace,John Berry
I think you might have left the vortex list, so I'm sending this to you privately because I'd like your answer, I remember you were very knowledgeable of electrodynamics.
The thought goes like this and I promise it leads to something very interesting.
Take a long straight wire (or if you like a very large loop) and put a DC current through it.
The electrons drift in one direction at say 1 meter a second (the speed isn't really important but Bill Beaty made some good arguments that it's about that speed).
So if you ignore all other charges in the universe and wire and consider only the moving charges and and an equal number of stationary protons making the wire.
So as the electrons drift past, the magnetic field they create moves with them creating the motional E-field of Hooper and which the Faraday motor uses to generate a voltage.
If you now start to run against the direction of the electron drift so your running toward the negative battery terminal at 1 meter a second now the electrons are passing you at 2 meters a second and the electromotive force you feel from them (mutually perpendicular to both your motion and the B-field achieved by 'cutting the flux lines' ;) has doubled, however the protons in the wire are also moving from your point of view at 1 meter a second in the same direction as the electrons creating a reverse EMF cancelling the other out so only the difference of 1 meter a second exists.
No matter how fast you move (in the direction against the electron drift) you will never see the radial DC motional e-field get any stronger because the protons will take away any gains.
Do you accept this as true?
If you believe that the induced EMF gets stronger the faster you move then you must hold that the protons don't create a 'magnetic field' that partially cancels out and induces the opposite EMF which would require that you believe that either:
The protons don't create a magnetic field because they aren't moving relative to some local frame, or in other words they aren't moving through the aether but that that aether or reference frame only applies to the establishment of the magnetic field and not the electromotive force felt by moving through the B-field. (although this idea would mean that any EMF applied to a stationary charge which does not move as a result of the EMF would be a unidirectional force not reflected back on the wire/magnet because the stationary charge wouldn't have a magnetic field as it's not moving)
Or I suppose you could possibly hold that the 2 magnetic fields somehow interact (rather than superimposing vectors) they fight it out the stronger wins and is considered 'real' and hence the only one allowed to induce an EMF. (even though in other reference frames the other one is 'real')
I'm not sure if you noticed but neither of those alternatives seem awfully likely. (and that's coming from someone that you might guess believes in an aether)
So I will explain various results of this (they are worth it trust me) after you please tell me if your convinced and if not how you see the EMF increasing as velocity parallel to the wire increases.
I wish to run an experiment to verify this and could use some help with calculating the amps/turns and drift velocities if you are willing.
Thanks,
Regarding "missing" e-mail posts and messages, we have been experiencing power outages in key locations in the US like St.Louis. The internet is subject to power outages just like my lightbulbs at home.During the past few months there has been some internet "magic" taking place. I will leave it up to others to speculate and/or identify this magic, be it key location power outage, mid-east rowdy boys playing games or big uncle protecting us from ourselves.Go figure.Richard
