Once they have given up their excess electron(s) to the front surface of the ball, they become neutrals so they go with the wind their former colleagues behind are still entraining, around the ball and beyond.
Now one might ask, what's special with the front of the ball? Shouldn't the ions be attracted to the nearest part of the ball i.e. hit it radially on average, in which case there would be no thrust? My guess is that this is because this is the part with the best conduction path to the +ve HV rotor tips, either by direct contact or by internal corona discharge. Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Veeder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 4:52 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Miklos Borbas Thruster?? >I can see the -ve ions being channelled to the +ve front surface of the ping > ball, but for rotation to result some of the -ve ions must end up _beyond_ > the front surface. Why should this arise? > > Harry > > On 3/6/2007 8:15 PM, Michel Jullian wrote: > >> Well, no, it's the attraction force between the -ve ions in front of the >> balls >> (drifting towards them to eventually neutralize on them) and the +ve charges >> on the ball fronts which causes the rotor to rotate. The entrained neutrals >> create a drag on the contrary (a backwards force). >> >> Michel >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Harry Veeder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 3:59 AM >> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Miklos Borbas Thruster?? >> >> >>> Ok, so the entrained neutrals with the ping pong balls >>> decreases the air pressure just in front of balls, and this >>> causes the rotator to rotate? >>> >>> Harry >>> >>> On 3/6/2007 7:11 PM, Michel Jullian wrote: >>> >>>> Removing the balls doesn't change the polarity of the tips of course, but >>>> it >>>> does change the direction of the entrained neutrals, due to more +ve ions >>>> moving from the rotor tips towards the stator tips than there are -ve ions >>>> moving from the stator tips towards the rotor tips. Only the -ve ion flow >>>> is >>>> present with the balls on.(*) >>>> >>>> Michel >>>> >>>> (*)assuming +ve HV on the rotor, which is what a CRT flyback provides >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Harry Veeder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 9:32 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Miklos Borbas Thruster?? >>>> >>>> >>>>> You mean the polarity of the tips can be switched by >>>>> adding or removing the ping pong ball? ;-) >>>>> >>>>> Harry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 3/6/2007 1:17 PM, Michel Jullian wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Afterthought: to make the phenomenon completely clear it might also be >>>>>> interesting to take a picture of the net ion wind going the other way >>>>>> (from >>>>>> the rotor tips to the stator tips) when the balls are removed from the >>>>>> locked >>>>>> rotor. >>>>>> >>>>>> Michel >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Michel Jullian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 8:05 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Miklos Borbas Thruster?? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Great work again Kyle! >>>>>> >>>>>> I had expected things would be easier to see with the rotor locked. As a >>>>>> matter of fact I believe I had suggested this test to Miklos himself ages >>>>>> ago, >>>>>> as well as what just turned out to be the correct explanation, but he >>>>>> wasn't >>>>>> interested. So the front of the balls is indeed the ion discharge point >>>>>> as >>>>>> we >>>>>> had imagined initially, due to the ball being a lousy insulator. >>>>>> >>>>>> Can you post a photograph or a video of your test #2 somewhere? Ideally >>>>>> you >>>>>> would need a smoke source under each corona emitter for results to be >>>>>> totally >>>>>> unambiguous, but this may not be easy to arrange, not to mention the >>>>>> smell >>>>>> ;-) >>>>>> >>>>>> Michel >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 6:43 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Miklos Borbas Thruster?? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Gentlemen, an update from the lab, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tests using smoke reveal the following: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1. With the Borbas device free to rotate, smoke is relatively unaffected >>>>>>> in proximity to the device. It is hard to tell however exactly what is >>>>>>> going on as the smoke is also being stirred around by the device motion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2. With the device locked and unable to rotate, things get more >>>>>>> interesting. There is a slight general movement of the smoke opposite >>>>>>> the direction of which the device would want to rotate, were it free to >>>>>>> do so. But the velocity of the smoke is very small; the volume of >>>>>>> movement is very large however, extending several inches from the device >>>>>>> in all directions, less so above and below it. Now, if the column of >>>>>>> rising smoke is allowed to touch the stator corona wire, things are very >>>>>>> clear to see: upon touching the corona wire, the smoke instantly makes a >>>>>>> 90 degree turn and goes straight towards the balls, and at a much higher >>>>>>> speed. It doesn't stop at the balls either, it goes right past them and >>>>>>> then immediately behind them spreads out and joins the rest of the >>>>>>> slowly moving air. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 3. Outside of a thin polyethylene bag, there is still air flow. Image >>>>>>> charges? It isn't high speed, but certainly is enough to contribute to >>>>>>> thrusting action. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 4. Removing the balls from the rotor wires and covering them with >>>>>>> silicone resin reduced motion of the device (now set up free to rotate >>>>>>> again) by about 1/2. Turning the corona wires in the opposite direction >>>>>>> reversed the thrust. Making the corona wires point exactly radially >>>>>>> outwards reduced the thrust to zero. Putting the corona wires back into >>>>>>> their original (pointing towards the rotor) configuration but covered >>>>>>> with silicone resin again gave zero thrust. It is my belief that given >>>>>>> these results, the Borbas device is clearly conventional. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 5. Per Horace's suggestion, I powered the device with AC. The results, >>>>>>> were to say the least, disappointing. No thrust was observed using any >>>>>>> of the configurations given above, save one. With rotor electrodes >>>>>>> having a more flattened surface and corona wires very pointed, there was >>>>>>> a slight motion, but I determined this to be again corona >>>>>>> wind....insulating the pointed electrodes killed the effect. These >>>>>>> results remained the same at 60cps, 400cps, 1500cps, 5000cps and >>>>>>> 8000cps. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thoughts? >>>>>>> --Kyle >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >
