On Nov 25, 2009, at 3:13 PM, William Beaty wrote:
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009, Horace Heffner wrote:
I haven't looked at the referenced website yet, as I have little time
at the moment. However, it seems this might be a future topic of
interest on vortex-l, depending on how things go for Eaton, Sokol,
and Allan.
Who besides the inventor has achived closed-loop?
I don't now of any. I think there are lots of groups that inject
hydrogen and oxygen into their motors though, to increase efficiency.
My impression was that HHO devices are only sold by dishonest
scammers,
because while they work as claimed, the sellers hide the fact that
they
shorten your engine life through hydrogen embrittlement. Has someone
solved this problem? Or am I wrong?
I don't think anyone injects pure hydrogen. It's a stoichiometric
mix of hydrogen and oxygen. If you think about it, it is really not
too different from burning hydrocarbons in air. You get oxygen and
hydrogen in the flame, from decomposing hydrocarbons and air, and
make water. With H2 and O2 injection you just get more water. The
excess water might be a problem, but we have discussed many times
here, mainly thanks to Fred Sparber, that in WWII many farmers used
commercial tractors that increased gas milage through water
injection. I actually saw one of those on display here in Palmer, AK
recently, still in running condition. The water extracted the heat
from the combustion to make steam which increased the cylinder
pressure, resulting in a better power stroke and lower temperature
cleaner burning and a more efficient engine, due to the fact less
waste heat was ejected. This is not to say excess water can't ruin
some engines, especially modern ones! It also is not to say there is
any reason to believe anyone can "close the loop" with this. It is
just to say there may be efficiencies to be gained.
OT: I never knew that Andrija Puharich ever was into FE devices. But
apparently he had a maverick H2-splitting theory, and in the 1970s
he was
driving around an RV with an onboard high-freq hydrogen generator.
I think the supposedly ou electrolysis of Puharich, including the 2nd
law violating aspects of Puharich, have been discussed here in the
past. Here are some old posts:
On Jun 7, 1999, at 11:50 PM, Horace Heffner wrote:
At 2:56 AM 6/8/99, Norman Horwood wrote:
Horace said:
The lower the cell resistance the more that can be gained from
operating
at
resonance if the cell is AC. <<
You aint 'arf gettin' close to Stan Meyer!! He used stainless steel
concentric tubes, and ramped, pulsed, High voltage DC in tap-
water. I
could never get the cell to resonate at 10kv from 100Hz up to
20KHz pulse
Some comments:
Then maybe resonance was outside that range? Puharich used
frequencies way
above that.
Using 10 kv sounds insane. Does Meyer give some reason for that?
You want
less than a couple volts per cell, right? Electrolyser cells using
solid
polymer electrolytes, e.g. GE's perflourinated sulfonic acid
polymer, and
high temperature (1000 C) vapor cells as well, operate at less than
1 volt.
Stan Meyer produced Brown's gas?
Achieving resonance using 10 KV should be fairly easy at *some*
natural
frequency? Here's some food for thought:
Rotary Spark
Gap
10 kV -------------------o o-----
| |
| |
Cell L1
| |
C2 |
| |
Ground ------------------C1------
C1 and/or C2 maybe not necessary
C1, C2, or L2 variable if you want to be able to tune the freq.
C2 possibly useful to block DC if the 10 kV supply is DC
If doing electrospark or O-M type cell, then moving the cell into
series
with (or replacing) the spark gap, is possibly feasible.
An oscillator and step down air core transformer might be useful
for HF
electrolysis.
And the free association on water disassociation keeps on roiling.
Isn't
this fun? Can't be sure any of it is right, of course!
On Jun 10, 1999, at 11:38 PM, Horace Heffner wrote:
At 4:55 PM 6/10/99, Norman Horwood wrote:
Horace,
Did you ever try reconstructing and running at that resonant
frequency?
<<
Yes, but since the rebuild could not be identical I never struck
the same
overall conditions so couldn't replicate (how unusual, where have
I heard
that before? ;^)
Interesting. The condition might have been one of amplitude
modulation of
a carrier, via acoustic feed back from your system. I earlier
(wrongly)
suggested that it is unlikely to find a resonance under 40 kHz, but
Puharich had other thigs to say about that in US Patent 4,394,230
(1983).
True this patent has been around for a while, so if there were any
truth or
significane to it you would have heard of profitable implimentation
by now.
This is now or is soon to be public domain.
Puharich's method was to use an AM signal applied to an annular
configuration looking much like a spark plug, at modest voltages,
e.g. 22
V. His claims specify audio frequencies in the range of 20 to 200
Hz, and
the carrier, which is AM modulated by the AF, in a range of 200 -
100,000
Hz. However, the body of the patent has more interesting
specifications.
One of the more interesting is his specification that the electrode
gap
width be the quenching distance for hydrogen (has some bearing on PLEC
design?)
Regarding frequencies, Puharich notes changing waveforms in different
stages of operation. However, in the third stage, he notes the ideal
parameters including harmonic modulations. He states: " The wave
form now
shifts to a form found to be the prime characteristic necessary for
optimum
efficiency in the electrolysis of water and illustrated in FIg.
11." [Note
- FIG. 11 shows an AC sawtooth waveform, with very straight ramps
to the
peaks, an squiqqly ramps back to the x axis. The peaks are
equidistant
from the x axis.] "In the waveform of FIG. 11 the fundamental carrier
frequency Fc = 3980 Hz. and a harmonic modulation of the carrier as
follows:
1st Order Harmonic Modulation (OHM) = 7960 Hz
2nd Order Harmonic Modulation (II OHM) = 15,920 Hz
3rd Order Harmonic Modulation (III OHM) = 31,840 Hz
4th Order Harmonic Modulation (IV OHM) = 63,690 Hz
What is believed to be happening in this IV OHM effect is that each
of the
four apecies of the tetrahedron water molecule is resonant to one
of the
four harmonics observed. It is believed that the combination of
negative
repulsive forces at the outer electrode with resonant frequencies just
described work together to shatter the water molecules into its
component
hydrogen and oxygen atoms (as gases.) The deductions are based on the
following observation of the process through a low power
microscope. The
hydrogen bubbles were seen to originate at the electrode rim, 4' of
FIG. 3.
FIG. 12 shows a top view of this effect." [Note FIG 12 shows six
equispaced radial bead chains going from the outer anode to the inner
cathode.]
Note that puharich used very low wattages and currents for these
experiments. Uniformly about 1 ma, starting at 22 V, but dropping
to 10 V
and sometimes to 2.6 V.
Puharich notes a barrier effect, due to a very thin film bubble
formation
on the electrode, which he alleviated by tapping. He recommends 0.9
percent or less KOH or NaCl to reduce the barrier effect.
Puharich also says: "The pulsing amplitude modulation of the
voltage is
determined by the Hydrogen Nuclear Spin relaxation constant, where
Tau ~=
3.0 seconds. It is to be noted that the positive pulse spikes are
followed
by a negative after-potential. These pulse wave forms are
identical to the
classic nerve action potential spikes found in the nervous system
of all
living spcies that have a nervous system. The fact that these
unipolar
pulses were observed arising in water under the conditions of
reversible
threshold hydrolysis has a profound significance." [The PLEC magnetic
stirrer has some significance, by changing the NMR frequency?]
One of the more interesting things in the patent is a quote by
Puharich of
Penner, S. S., and L. Icerman, ENERGY, VOl II, Non-Nuclear Energy
Technologies, Addison-Wesley Publishing Company, Inc. Revised Edition,
1977, Reading Mass, Page 140 ff., which follows:
"(When) H2 (gas) and O2 (gas) are generated by electrolysis, the
electrolytic cell must absorb heat from the surroundings in order
to remain
at constant temperature. It is this ability to produce gaseous
electrolysis
products with heat absorbtion from the surroundings that ultimately
responsible for energy-conversion efficiencies during electrolysis
greater
than unity."
This statement is also fully in agreement with Peavey, provided the
electrolysis occurs below the thermoneutral voltage for the cell
operating
pressure and temperature. The thermoneutral temperature rises with
water
temperature, so 2nd Law violating opportunities, if they exist,
occur at
higher temperatures and pressures.
Regards,
Horace Heffner
On Jul 1, 1999, at 11:34 AM, Horace Heffner wrote:
At 1:18 AM 7/1/99, Jones Beene wrote:
Horace, Very Interesting concept, your REC.
Do you know if anyone has every disproved the OU claims in the
Puharich
concept?
He supposedly used resonant AC with a week electrolyte. As I
recall, the best
results were at 600 Hz, but other reports in the press have mentioned
resonances
up to 40000 K (or was that Keely?).
Puharich, noted in US Patent 4,394,230 that he found resonances in
pure
water at 3,980 Hz, and octaves 7,960, 15,920, 31840, and 63,690
Hz. It has
been conjectured that is why Stanley Meyer operated at around
16,000 Hz.
Also, running all those octave overtones gives a lazy (triangular half
cycle) sawtooth wave.
BTW, I just got those numbers directly from the patent and did not
recall
the noting the one at 3,980, which may be very useful. It is
"hidden" in
the text a bit, hidden from one quickly glancing at it for
reference that
is.
In checking some old notes just now I see that Puharich in one
patent used a
complex alternating current output consisting of an audio
frequency (range
20 to
200 Hz) amplitude modulation of a carrier wave (range - 200 to
100,000 Hz).
Yes, and he made a big deal about it, but I remember when reading it
thinking that it may have simply been a byproduct of a circuit he
found
convenient to use. Also, the low frequence stuff may have produced
a hum
that helped with bubble detachment, IMHO. I wouldn't know for sure
without
replicating.
Also, it seems he discovered his electrolysis concept as an MD,
when he
mistakenly ran AC through blood - only to find an enormous amount
of explosive
gas.
Interesting!! This is the first I've heard of this, I think.
Certainly
the first time I can see the significance. Rich information for
speculation!
Thankfully Puharich abandoned blood as his primary focus but your
slurry
comprised of dielectrics mixed with conductor might even be better.
Let me suggest one further enhancement that might be of benefit,
even though I
realize that your objectives go beyond the production of H2 as a
fuel.
If, for your dielectric, you used a proton conductor, and for the
conductor an
oxygen affinity material,
Yes, proton conductors may have some advantage there, as applied to
maintaining isolation until processing in the gas separator.
Howver, a
much larger advantage may be in achieving direct electronation from
hydroxyl radicals at the proton conductor surface upon charge
reversal,
thus eliminating the need for conductor particles in the
electrolyte at
all. However, lots of dielectics might play this role as catalyst,
since
it is a only surface effect that is desired. Large surface area
certainly
plays a role.
Since the moving electrolyte slurry of the REC changes the
electrolysis
modality into more of a an industrial process plant, maybe there are
intermediate chemcical reactions that could be used as well. The
output of
the electrolyser might even be in the form of a liquid fuel to
later be
separated. If the resoance mode of operation realy does improve
electrolysis efficiency as much as hoped, then who knows what kind of
chemical processes might benefit from this principle? For example,
ammonia
production, critical to fertilizer production, requires hydrogen
which in
many cases is produced by electrolysis. That process may benefit
by short
circuiting some steps and producing the ammonia directly.
Then you might be able to continually recycle the
slurry to lessen the problem of "recombination" in the output gas
flow.
Polysulfone, in a powdered form, would serve nicely as the
dielectric; and a
nickel alloy would do very well as the conductor. I believe that
there are even
some nickel alloys specifically designed to attach to and OH ion
and then give
it up easily, somewhat in the same manner as hemoglobin does with
O in blood.
Interesting. Also of interest in breaking the O-H bond in the OH-
radical.
Binding one end of the OH- to a catalyst prior to rotation might
facilitate this, and thus help electronation of H3O+ radicals in the
vicinity, insted of recycling the energy back through
recombination. (Wild
speculation.)
However, I suspect that Puharich's OU claims are overblown, as
someone would
surely have commercialized the system by now. But, who knows?
Yes.
And certainly there is still the CF angle.
Regards.
Jones Beene
Yes, and nickle plated polysulfonated beads do ring a bell there,
don't
they? BTW, I still have a complete CETI type cell with Pd over nickel
beads and platinum anode around somewhere.
Also, as mentioned earlier, I really like the idea of nickel
granules plus
K2CO3 electrolyte as an attempt to get a CF "chaser" to provide
free excess
heat to drive the electrolysis. Most of the CF regimes could use
a shot,
including glow discharge and electrospark.
On Jul 1, 1999, at 10:23 PM, Horace Heffner wrote:
It may be of interest to try to use resonance to attempt to improve
exisitng ordinary DC electrolytic cells. This posting is just food
for
thought. The method may also work for driving slurry type cells,
but only
with metal electrodes due to the use of DC, and it is difficult to
achieve
the necessary operating voltages. I don't know how well this
suggestion
will work, but it may be useful to try, to play around with it and
to make
either C1 or L1 variable so as to look for water resonance by
examining the
phase shift across the the electrolytic cell, as per Puharich.
Fig. 1 is the circuit proposed for utilizing resonance in an ordinary
stacked plate electrolysis cell.
I1
--------------- V1
| |
| ------------- I2
| | |
| | C1
AC L1 |
| | -------- +
| | |Bridge|--------Cell------
| | |Recti-| |
| | | fier |------------------
| | -------- -
| | |
| | |
| | I3 R1
| | |
| -------------
| |
--------------- Ground
AC - AC source
L1 - The tank inductance (choke)
C1 - The tank capacitance
R1 - The net tank circuit resistance
I1 - Input current (rms)
I2 - Cell current (rms)
I3 - Inductor current (rms)
V1 - supply voltage = cell voltage
Xl - Reactance of L1
Xc - Reactance of C1
Cell - electolytic cell
Cell2 - second electrolytic cell
Fig. 1 - Resonant circuit for DC electrolysis cell(s)
When the operating frequency is at the resonant frequency for the tank
circuit L1, C1, R1, the net impedence of the tank circuit is
maximum to the
AC source, thus the current through the cell I2 is at a maximum with
respect to the input current I1. In fact,
I2 = Q * I1 = I3
Where Q is given by:
Q = Xl/R1
and is a measure of the sharpness of the resonance peak. Since
values of Q
over 100 are not uncommon in ordinary resonance circuits, this is
fascinating, and hints at ou behaviour all by itself, assuming the
cell can
be made efficient enough that heat from ambient becomes a large
contributor
to the splitting reaction.
The main difficulty with this approach is it imposes the diode drop
of the
rectifier bridge into the circuit, which reduces Q. Also, the
rectifier
bridge must be capable of handling the full resonant voltage and
current,
I2 = Q*I1. There is also the added expense of a high frequency AC
supply,
a choke and capacitor. The choke L1 and capacitor C1 can be easily
home
made if the frequency is high enough. The problem might be the HF AC
source, but even that should be had fairly cheaply if home built.
It need
not even produce sine waves, as its only purpose is to stimulate
the tank
circuit. Frequency of the oscillator can be driven by feedback
from the
tank circuit.
Regards, Note: without prior arrangement, any technical
information emailed to me will be treated as
Horace Heffner public domain and available for posting.
Best regards,
Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
