At 04:07 AM 12/13/2012, Axil Axil wrote:
Abd ul-Rahman Lomax on vortex stated:
People are very appreciative of Russ because
he's getting his hands dirty, and that is indeed
to be commended. But that's not enough. Cold
fusion flopped about for years with people
trying to make reliable heat. Scientifically,
the field did not shift until Miles did much
more than that: he measured helium as correlated
with heat, which can cut through mountains of
BS. And which did. That was a huge amount of
work, he had to run many experiments, at the
same time as he was losing funding and support,
and it was difficult, to get published and he
faced some serious -- and seriously silly --
opposition, from no less than Steve Jones, who
never saw a real cold fusion result beyond his
own tiny reported effect, that he didn't dislike.
Someone posted on Russs site that most of the
videos about the Papp engine are currently
disabled. I checked a few and its true.
John Rohner makes a big deal out of this.
Apparently the Rohner brothers claimed copyright
on some of those and demanded that youtube take
them down. That's according to John Rohner. When
he first wrote that, all he did was blame his
brothers for trying to censor him. But if he
actually had the right to post those videos, all
he had to do was certify that to youtube, and,
absent a court decision, youtube would normally
put them back up, as I understand the DCMA.
That's called a "counterclaim" and if you make a
fraudulent counterclaim, you are in legal hot water.
Why would the Rohners do this? Could it be that
the open source Papp engine effort is just far
too productive for comfort? Could it be that
Russ has done more to bring back the Papp
technology in a month than the Rohners have accomplished in 30 years?
The Papp technology has not been "brought back."
There are people starting to look at it again.
Russ back engineered the Papp popper
hardwaredown to the centimeter right from those
videos; a very impressive accomplishment in my opinion.
Axil has not been specific here. What videos?
Russ's study followed the Bob Rohner video,
that's what he's written, but he says that most
of the work was his own. And he's provided no data.
We all know that the best way to motivate the
development of any product is to encourage fierce competition.
The first developer who can demonstrate over
unity in power production will have all those
disgruntled Rohner investors
you get the idea.
Sure. However, look. We have people claiming that
they are operating, not only demonstrations, but
actual engines. Except nobody has seen those
engines. And the demonstrations do not show
over-unity power, nor, as far as I can tell, has
Russ even attempted this. What he's done is to
move a piston by dumping 500 joules into it.
Which does not demonstrate overunity. It does
demonstrate what I've stated, a willingness to
get his hands dirty. But what I wonder is why he
has not taken this to the next step, which is
pretty simple, by comparison. If he documents the
mass of the pistion and what's connected to it,
and he documents the movement of that piston (in
time), the force on the piston and the distance
over which this force is active, and thus the
power, can be estimated, and integrated to
energy. If that is close to or less than 500
joules, he has no demonstration of over unity. If
it is substantially greater, he's got something.
If it's close, he *doesn't yet have something
that could be the basis of an engine,* and he'd
need to explore the parameter space to see if he
can improve the results. He's using hydrogen, not
the noble gas mixture considered necessary for
Papp engines, and reported as so by all the Rohners.
Even without the explicit intention, I think that could be underway shortly.
The Papp engine is just so attractive that it
inspires con men and charlatans in unlimited numbers including Papp himself.
Yes. The existence of such con men does not
negate the effect. Con men have attempted to
exploit cold fusion in various ways. It means
nothing about cold fusion itself. Just because
cold fusion is real does not meant that Charley
Amazing's device, ready for investment, send your
money in Now and get in on the ground floor! is real.
The Rohners spent years learning at the feet of
Grandfather Papp, all of it, the good, the bad and the ugly.
For all those who would aspire to the vision and
the dream that the true Papp technology can be,
these men of good and stout heart must be ever
vigilant and watchful of scandal in this regard.
I am sure that if there is anything to the Papp
engine, Russ and his friends will dig it out in
the most up front, honest, straightforward and
well documented manner that they can muster.
Let's hope so. He's positioned to do it, but
hasn't shown thoroughness, and I'm not sure he
readily understands all the issues. He did not
disclose aspects of what he got from John Rohner,
as to the Popper kit, that he could legally have disclosed, apparently.
Now, if he signed an NDA that forbade disclosing
the terms of the NDA, he'd have a problem, but
sometimes these NDAs can be broken where it's
obviously a benefit to public policy to do so. He
should discuss this stuff with people who know.
An NDA cannot be used to prevent opening up
evidence of consumer fraud, for example. But one
would need to be careful. But I don't think Russ
actually signed an NDA. Rather, John Rohner made
copyright claims. Those do not generally disallow
disclosure of fact. Complicated issue. Russ seems naive.
