At 05:36 PM 12/23/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
As I was when people started calling the Bible a fairy tale written
by goat herders.
I don't recall that. Rather rude, I'd say, but is there something
wrong with being a goat herder (i.e., a nomad)?
People who believe the Bible (or the Qur'an) are "fairy tales" are
common. There is something wrong with the idea.
No fairies in the "fairy tale." Must mean something else, like myth.
Something wrong with myth? Myth is how people preserved ideas and
conveyed meaning that wasn't "scientific fact." Not commenting on the
Bible here, but the Qur'an is not a science textbook, nor is it a
history text. It calls itself a "story." A story that conveys
something, and it does that.
And that is *my* story. My training is to use the word "story" to
refer to interpretations, to the creation and assignment of
*meaning.* "True" and "false" are stories. That is, they necessarily
involve interpretations. That's not Islam, it's epistemology and
simple understanding.
You feel that I have no right to defend what I believe from lies,
The truth does not require defending, it's just truth.
yet feel that Lomax has every right to defend his from the truth.
Jojo Jaro actually has no idea what I believe. He simply makes
assumptions from "Muslim." He imagines the situation is parallel, it isn't.
What I actually *worship* is Truth, and I don't own the truth;
rather, it owns me. In all these discussions, I have simply stated
what I've observed. Jojo Jaro thinks that I'm offended by "the
truth," and he believes that he has the truth. But he does not tell
us what he actually knows, he tells us what he *believes*. There is a
huge difference. And what he believes is not what he'd find in the
Bible, for example, it's what he's gotten from reading lots of
material that is from people he trusts, apparently. It's not coming
from God, and unless his "religion" is something invented in the last
few decades, it's very modern and not religious at all, except in a
very loose sense.
He takes whatever he likes and *believes* it.
Every one went up in arms when I defended the Bible from lies;
Great example. "a fairy tale written by goat herders." Is that a
*lie*. No, it's just an opinion, and not a particularly offensive
one, except possible for some slur on nomads. It's just plain wrong,
basically stupid. The nomads didn't write, they were generally
illiterate. They almost certainly *did* tell "stories." And so what?
Now, did someone repeat "fairy tale written by goat herders" over and
over? I don't recall seeing it at all. And did 'everyone go up in
arms when Jojo "defended the Bible"? Again, I don't recall, basically
I don't recall Jojo "defending" anything. He attacks. Period. If
someone says something false about the Bible, and that fairy tale
statement could be false, at least that's a reasonable
interpretation, he doesn't explain what's false and what is true, he
attacks the poor person who said that, except that I don't recall it
happening here, and I haven't looked back to his early posts. Jojo
*never* gives evidence, he just makes his statements and expects
everyone to either believe him or do research *that he makes difficult.*
but when Lomax defends his from the truth; that is OK and celebrated.
Some don't like that I'm responding here. If Jojo had simply
responded to false statements, that would be one thing. But what was
false that needed to be responded to with "Allah is a Moon God" and
"Muslims are all liars" and "Muslims follow a pedophile prophet" and
"Muslims are all vicious killers" and all the rest. No, Jojo does not
defend, he attacks, and he attacks with what he might believe is the
truth, but which he actually does not know. He's the same as those
who attacked Jesus as a heretic, believing what they'd been told about him.
I wonder why people are afraid to criticize islam. Could it be
that muslims would not put up with it like Christians would turn
the other cheek?
Jojo is hardly an example of turning the other cheek. He's very
explicitly disavowed doing that, and has threatened to respond (and
has responded) to perceived insult with *more* insult, thus breaking
not only the Christian rule, but the older Jewish rule (Islam
actually combines them, as I pointed out in a post, but, to be sure,
that's normative Islam, not necessarily how "Muslims" behave.)
I'm pretty sure that's it. People tiptoe around islam while having
a field day with Christianity. Why? They know they can get away
with criticizing Christianity, unlike with islam.
That's pretty weird. So people dislike what Jojo is doing because
they are afraid of Islam. Who, here, is "having a field day with
Christianity"? Jojo is not "Christianity." Hardly!
There is only one person here who might be in real danger from what's
been written here. Me. I'm not anonymous. I can be found. And there
are Muslim "fundamentalists" who don't like how I write about Islam.
For a time I had a post office box at San Quentin, and I checked
packages for bombs. But I'm probably not worth killing, I'm simply
not valuable enough of a target to invest resources in. I have a
friend who was. Murdered, in Tucson. But these aren't real Muslims,
they are fanatics who kill everyone who gets in their way, and they
*start* with Muslims. They don't go around trying to kill idiots like
Jojo Jaro.
What exactly have I said about islam that is not the truth? That
you consider that trolling?
I've listed plenty.
Have I not provided evidence from muslim scholars of what I said?
Once, today, Jojo provided some citations from Bukhari and Muslim.
Far from establishing what he's claimed, they contradicted it. They
showed that Ayesha was a sexually mature woman, which was the
criterion in every tribal culture, not just Islam. Remember, tribal
cultures were not, originally, literate.
Have I not provided incontrovertible evidence that muhammed is
indeed a child molester
No. "child molester" is not a term applied to a husband who has,
according to a society's customs or laws, consummated a marriage with
a sexually mature woman.
who forcibly took a 6 year-old little girl barely out of diapers
still playing with dolls,
This has all been answered in detail, and Jojo simply ignores that
and keeps repeating it, claiming that this is "truth," but he's
completely incautious.
Ayesha was not "forcibly taken" at six. She did not go to live with
the Prophet until *at least* two years later, and that's not even
clear. Her age is not really clear. She was young, but how young. She
was playing with dolls at the time of the betrothal.
and had intercourse with her when she was 9 years old.
Notice how the story is told. She was "forcibly taken" at six. That's
not shown in any evidence I've seen, he's simply making it up. Ayesha
was betrothed to the Prophet -- that's equivalent to "engaged" -- by
her father. She long outlived the Prophet and told many of the
stories that are the basis of what we understand about their life.
She was very pleased to be married to him, it appears.
Again, we don't know exactly when the marriage was consummated.
*Some* Muslim sources say nine. However, what is *certain* from the
sources and how they have been interpreted for fourteen centuries is
that Ayesha was sexually mature when the marriage was consummated.
Jojo doesn't want to note that because it contradicts his "child
molester" story. In modern American society, young women are legally
considered "children" until they are 18. That is very, very modern.
What is the "truth" being denied here?
Jojo has certainly not provided "incontrovertible evidence." That
kind of evidence doesn't exist for these details of the life of the
Prophet and Ayesha. Essentially, the best we have are rumors that
were accepted when this stuff was written down, long after it
happended. There is only one fact that has come out of these
discussions that is *relatively* incontrovertible: Ayesha was a
sexually mature woman when the marriage was consummated. And that is
all we need to know to negate the "child molester" charge. The law in
the United States, and in many places around the world, still allows
marriage a quite young ages, with appropriate permissions. What has
happened is that the default age has become much older.
The "great" prophet, for whom great wars are being fought",
molested a 9 year old little girl.
What the sources show are stories that, if true, establish something
else. The sources cited by Jojo, today -- the first time he provided
sources! -- show that Ayesha was sexually mature. Because it is not
impossible that a 9 year old is sexually mature, she might indeed
have been nine, but the sources that claim that are not fully
authoritative, for reasons I've described in other posts.
But what's clear is "sexually mature." That would mean breast or
nipple development, pubic hair, and menstruation as the last sign.
Many, many stories are known, through Ayesha, of her life with the
Prophet. These are not the stories of a molested child. They are the
stories of his young wife, whom he loved and he loved her. For Jojo,
these stories are only of interest for what salacious import he can
imagine in them. It's obvious.
"Great wars are being fought" -- what great wars?
It seems to me that those who follow such a man would need to have
his head examined. Yet he has the audacity to proclaim himself an
expert. LOL....
He lies again. I never proclaimed myself an "expert." I've stated how
I know what I know. That makes me, on Islam, and on cold fusion, and
on some areas of physics, more knowledgeable than most, but not as
knowledgeable as someone we'd call an "expert."
Jojo thinks as he thinks, and the most significant error is that he
imagines that what he thinks is "the truth." No, it's what he thinks,
and this is so for *all of us.* There is a truth that is accessible
to us, and it's our actual experience. It's not "conclusion," which
always falls short of reality. The scientific method can help us to
approach truth, but we never completely get there. And Jojo has no
clue about the scientific method.
He can't handle ordinary evidence, right in front of his face, he's
too busy atracking.
