You propose an interesting concept Robin. Take a look at my post concerning the behavior of a pair of magnets of the same type and power. I draw some interesting conclusions about the energy storage and extraction in that exercise.
I think the main interaction of the steel piece is to direct some of the magnetic flux into a lower reluctance path which apparently is a less energetic state for the system. Since less energy is the final result, a force will appear that works with the movement to release the excess energy. A capacitor behaves in a similar manner. There is a force existing between the two charged plates that if allowed to cause movement will result in less energy being stored in the electric field. The movement represents a conversion of electric field energy into mechanical energy. Of course this is only true when the leads of the capacitor are open circuited and no external energy is input. It is an interesting process to pile steel pellets onto a magnet until there is no external field. The final state of the conglomerate is of low energy. All the lines of force are effectively shorted out through the steel pellets and the field energy is minimized. I like to mentally allow each pellet to locate its final resting place (rip) slowly as I extract the mechanical energy during the process. If not, the pellets would speed up and collide with the magnet releasing most of the energy in the form of heat. You appear to be describing normal transformer operation. The internal domains of the steel align with the drive such that you get far more field than would occur within air. That is a reasonably efficient operation as long as eddy currents are not too strong and the process does not result in much loss to heating. At a slow rate such as I am referring to, the loss would be extremely small. Dave -----Original Message----- From: mixent <[email protected]> To: vortex-l <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, Apr 16, 2013 12:48 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Yildiz motor in Geneva -- ran 5.5 hours then broke down In reply to David Roberson's message of Sun, 14 Apr 2013 18:49:20 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] >I am having a difficult time judging the amount of energy stored in these magnets. I recall almost having a finger removed when holding a piece of steel near a powerful rare earth magnet. The force attracting the metal was very large and worked against my muscle power. I do not know how many joules of energy were released by the magnet as it drew the steel near to itself, but it was significant. I assume this process could be repeated many times with additional pieces of steel until the field was hidden within the metal mass. I think that as the normally randomly oriented magnetic domains in the steel (not the magnet) enter the field of the magnet, they domains in the steel become oriented, and as a consequence release energy. IOW the energy isn't coming from the magnet, but from the steel. If the steel is removed from the magnet, then apart from the energy required to remove it, I would also expect the temperature of the steel to drop a little as thermal energy is used to randomize the magnetic domains in the steel again. (BTW this may be the mechanism involved in the motor, since magnets are moving around rapidly, and the magnetic field strength is constantly varying, it's possible that a magnetic heat pump is at work, that is extracting heat from the air flowing through the device.) Note that this would be another example of a system that violates Carnot because it converts energy from kinetic to potential, and then into kinetic again, but in the form of macroscopic motion rather than atomic motion (i.e. heat). > > >If you take that amount of energy and multiply it by the number of magnets in the device, you obtain a fairly large amount of energy. I would certainly expect this amount of available energy to be capable of overcoming the losses due to friction in bearings for a very long time. The energy extracted by a fan would need to be handled as well. I am not suggesting that the Yildiz motor is a fraud, but I suspect that there may be another explanation for its performance that is more "down to earth". :-) Then I suggest you look at the patent app., and figure out exactly how much magnet volume is available. Multiplying by the MGO of the magnetic material will give you a total energy figure. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
