My bad assumption, the effort is directed toward the Celani cell.
Let me restate. IMHO, working on a non-Nano powder passed reaction is misguided and counterproductive. If we cannot convince nuclear engineers that a Ni/H reactor in a third party test works, a non-nanopowder bases cell has no hope of doing so. [image: https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/images/cleardot.gif] On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Axil Axil <[email protected]> wrote: > IMHO, working on the F&P cell and the Pd/D reaction is misguided and > counterproductive. > > If we cannot convince nuclear engineers that a Ni/H reactor in a third > party test works, a F&P cell has nor hope of doing so. > > > On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Blaze Spinnaker <[email protected] > > wrote: > >> "The production of gamma radiation is a sure sign that the LENR reaction >> is failing, in the same way that smoke is an indicator of a failing wood >> fire reaction. >> >> A hot and vigorous wood fire is smokeless." >> >> Your analogy is great cause being able to generate smoke is usually what >> you generally learn to do before you generate fire. >> >> >> "These LENR workers are misguided. " >> >> Your ad hominem not so great. >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 8:40 AM, Axil Axil <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> These LENR workers are misguided. These guys want an indicator based on >>> nuclear engineering to prove that LENR is occurring to these nuclear >>> people. This is a misinformed opinion and uneducated. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The production of gamma radiation is a sure sign that the LENR reaction >>> is failing, in the same way that smoke is an indicator of a failing wood >>> fire reaction. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> A hot and vigorous wood fire is smokeless. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> In the same way, a hot and vigorous LENR reaction is one without any >>> gammas. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> In the third party test of Rossi reactor during reactor meltdown, no >>> gammas were detected. The take away, a vigorous LENR reaction produces no >>> gammas. >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 5:34 AM, Blaze Spinnaker < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Well no, they have detected gamma rays, but perhaps not yet >>>> definitively. >>>> >>>> From FB: >>>> >>>> Gamma - the smoking gun of LENR? >>>> >>>> http://youtu.be/ehvRxMYczK8 >>>> >>>> We have seen repeatable bursts of gamma during re-gassing of the EU >>>> cells over the last 2 months and we are preparing a highly sensitive >>>> Thallium doped Sodium Iodide detector NaI(Tl) and a spectrometer to follow >>>> the evidence. If we can see specific non-background gamma energies, >>>> repeatably that maybe even correlate to excess heat, then it will be a very >>>> significant find. >>>> >>>> The next few months may, in retrospect, make this one of the most >>>> important blog posts in our short history. >>>> >>>> Read the blog post and see more videos here: >>>> >>>> http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/en/follow/follow-2/347-gamma >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 5:30 PM, James Bowery <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>>> The title of the FR post is (annoyingly) misleading. >>>>> >>>>> The MFMP team is saying that they are excited about putting a more >>>>> sensitive gamma ray detector into operation -- not that it has, as of now, >>>>> detected unambiguous gamma rays. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 6:30 PM, Kevin O'Malley <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> *MFMP detects GAMMA rays in LENR >>>>>> experiment*<http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/3088346/posts> >>>>>> *Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project ^ >>>>>> <http://www.freerepublic.com/%5Ehttp://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/en/follow/follow-2/347-gamma> >>>>>> * | 06 November 2013. | Robert Greenyer >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *"Well, to put it plain and simple - it would mean that we have a >>>>>> incontrovertible demonstration of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENR)."* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> <http://www.freerepublic.com/%7Ekevmo/> >>>>>> >>>>>> Gamma >>>>>> >>>>>> on 06 November 2013. The smoking gun of LENR? >>>>>> >>>>>> On January the 14th 2011, Rossi and Focardi gave the first public >>>>>> demonstration of the low temperature E-Cat to a personally invited >>>>>> group. A >>>>>> short time afterwards, Francesco Celani, who was present at the >>>>>> demonstration, sent a review for the event to New Energy Times. >>>>>> >>>>>> Francesco Celani record of first public E-Cat demonstration in New >>>>>> Energy Times >>>>>> >>>>>> In this article, it is noted that Rossi and Focardi had a twin gamma >>>>>> ray detector set up in order to detect e+e- annihilation that was >>>>>> expected >>>>>> by Focardi based on previous experiments. The results from that set up >>>>>> were >>>>>> not meaningful during the guests time in the room. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob Greenyer was keen to understand more about this event, so in the >>>>>> day following ICCF-18, he quizzed Francesco on the matter. Here is a >>>>>> fresh >>>>>> account of that event. >>>>>> >>>>>> Francesco was sitting down with other scientists and guests waiting >>>>>> to be called in for the demonstration, they were 7 – 8m away from E-Cat >>>>>> which was behind a door in another room. >>>>>> >>>>>> Francesco had 2 gamma detectors with him, 1 very cheap and 1 very >>>>>> expensive battery operated 1.25” NaI(TI) detection range of 25keV to 2000 >>>>>> keV. >>>>>> >>>>>> He notes that the background in Frascatti is normally around 120 >>>>>> because of local geology, but in Bologna it is 60, Francesco Celani set >>>>>> the >>>>>> detectors accordingly and the assembled group sat there patiently >>>>>> waiting. >>>>>> >>>>>> Suddenly and for about 1 second, both detectors topped out 1000+ >>>>>> counts PER SECOND and sounded their alarms (they could not show any >>>>>> more). >>>>>> Several of the invited observers considered literally running from the >>>>>> building as it was speculated that Rossi might be leveraging a >>>>>> radioactive >>>>>> source in his experiment. Why such concern? Well, radiation falls off >>>>>> according to Newtons 1/d^2 law as you can see here. >>>>>> >>>>>> Plugging the minimum 1000 counts per second and 8 meters into the >>>>>> formula would mean that 50cm from the E-Cat, the counts would be over a >>>>>> quarter million per second - not good! >>>>>> >>>>>> However, luckily the momentary signal collapsed and about two minutes >>>>>> later, Rossi came into the waiting room to invite people in to see the >>>>>> E-cat saying “the reaction has started”. >>>>>> >>>>>> Francesco and the rest of the invited guests then went into the room >>>>>> where the E-Cat was. Whilst in that room and using the NaI(TI) near the >>>>>> operating reactor, there was a 50-100% count increase over background >>>>>> which >>>>>> was erratic. Francesco decided to try and get a spectra from the >>>>>> detector, >>>>>> in order to understand what might be going on and so he switched mode on >>>>>> the detector. Rossi however saw what he was doing, got upset and Celani >>>>>> was >>>>>> told to stop the measurements, which he did. >>>>>> >>>>>> In addition, Celani said that he noted a number of gas cylinders in >>>>>> the room – but that it would only be speculation to say what they were. >>>>>> If >>>>>> E-Cats do indeed produce high gamma busts prepping for 'switch on' or >>>>>> elevated emissions during operation, that might explain challenges in >>>>>> getting domestic certification and the determination to keep below a >>>>>> fixed >>>>>> cop and using staged cascades of small to big E-Cats to create larger >>>>>> effective COPs. >>>>>> >>>>>> Whatever happened that day, Francesco Celani started investigating >>>>>> surface modified transition metals with hydrogen the following month. >>>>>> Inverse Square Law >>>>>> >>>>>> To help understand the inverse square law we made this little video. >>>>>> >>>>>> Comparing the 1100 counts per minute at 2 cm from source in that >>>>>> video to being 8m away, gives around 0.007 counts per minute - i.e. not >>>>>> meaningful contribution to the 25 or so background. Hopefully this gives >>>>>> a >>>>>> sense of why there was such excitement at the momentary signal in January >>>>>> 14, 2011. >>>>>> >>>>>> Celani >>>>>> >>>>>> After the end of ICCF-18 conference dinner, Bob found himself in a >>>>>> conversation opposite Francesco Celani and a prominent government funded >>>>>> scientist. Celani was told essentially that the levels of excess reported >>>>>> were basically not significant enough to avoid being dismissed and that >>>>>> what was needed as solid evidence of LENR was either transmutation or >>>>>> particle/ray emission. >>>>>> >>>>>> Francesco then said, that when he was testing his wire with >>>>>> Deuterium, he got gamma emissions, the scientist asked if it was explored >>>>>> but Celani said no because he was looking for excess heat and actually, >>>>>> that experiment just produced a clear negative result. Martin Fleischmann >>>>>> Memorial Project (MFMP) >>>>>> >>>>>> For the MFMP, this year has largely been about differential >>>>>> experiments, first the Steel and Glass, then the US dual cells and more >>>>>> recently, the calibrated dual Celani cells in France. In this latter >>>>>> experiment, the first of the active wires completed loading and moved >>>>>> into >>>>>> apparent excess heat after around six days and stayed firmly positive in >>>>>> favour of the active cell for more than 30 days. >>>>>> >>>>>> EU dual differential cells >>>>>> >>>>>> At one point, before the powering of the second wire, the active cell >>>>>> input power was reduced by around 2.5W. The differential dropped to zero, >>>>>> indicating that it took 2.5 more watts to raise the passive cell to the >>>>>> same average external temperature. >>>>>> >>>>>> Rough calculation assuming that only the actively powered wire is >>>>>> producing apparent excess - which given that the 280L looked like it was >>>>>> still loading, was a fair assumption. >>>>>> >>>>>> (2.5W / 42.5W) * 100 = 5.9% apparent excess, this is in line with >>>>>> other experiments we have performed. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2.5W *(1 / 0.275g [approximate weight of wire]) = 9.1W/g >>>>>> >>>>>> Celani says the wires he is supplying us should show excess of >>>>>> between 5W/g and 50W/g. This is in that range. >>>>>> >>>>>> Putting this in context, in theory 1kg of this wire would yield >>>>>> approximately 910W. >>>>>> >>>>>> But that is not what got us excited! >>>>>> >>>>>> The experiment had an annoying leak in the control cell and since the >>>>>> cells were bridged by a small pipe for pressure equalisation, Mathieu >>>>>> found >>>>>> he had to re-fill the cells every 48 hours or so. This leak was a bug he >>>>>> wanted to fix, and indeed, he made the replacement flange, but because >>>>>> the >>>>>> cells were producing good data, he stopped short of actually doing the >>>>>> repair. That might be a very important decision! >>>>>> >>>>>> Adjacent to the cells he had placed an unshielded geiger counter that >>>>>> normally registered around 22 counts per minute dropping to 12 and rising >>>>>> to around 30. In September 2013, he noticed that each time he refilled >>>>>> the >>>>>> cells, shortly afterwards, the counts leapt up to around 60-90. He waited >>>>>> for the same process to repeat a few times before informing the team. >>>>>> With >>>>>> the above knowledge about previous events – the team started to appeal >>>>>> for >>>>>> a NaI(Tl) and related equipment around the end of September. >>>>>> >>>>>> To our great delight, Jean-Paul Biberian supplied an old, but rather >>>>>> excellent, LARGE, Thallium doped Sodium Iodide detector/photon >>>>>> multiplier - >>>>>> NaI (Tl). The downside was that the associated electronics for driving it >>>>>> and analysing the spectrum of gamma energies was broken and not practical >>>>>> to replace. What to do? Normally this kind of hardware is expensive and >>>>>> we >>>>>> just did not have the funds... we were starting to feel the pain of many >>>>>> a >>>>>> scientist the world over, great potential experiment, nearly there, but >>>>>> no >>>>>> way of seeing it through. >>>>>> >>>>>> To be fair, Mathieu had found a detector driver and spectrometry >>>>>> solution that might be affordable, called Gamma Spectacular, they might >>>>>> just have got a solution for us. >>>>>> >>>>>> Gamma Spectacular website >>>>>> >>>>>> Then, as if by magic, Marissa Little from Earthtech, Texas contacted >>>>>> us and introduced that they were starting to re-visit LENR and had become >>>>>> aware of our work and was there any way to help us or work together. >>>>>> Well, >>>>>> we let them know just what was going on and said that the most important >>>>>> thing they could help us with right now was to help us find some way to >>>>>> drive our NaI detector. >>>>>> >>>>>> Earthtech website >>>>>> >>>>>> Working with the extremely knowledgeable Steven Sesselmann from Gamma >>>>>> Spectacular and Marissa, and a good deal of images over a few weeks, we >>>>>> came up with a solution, which, amazingly Earthtech offered to purchase, >>>>>> which they did 30/10/2013. We are very appreciative of this generosity, >>>>>> we >>>>>> hope that we can make use of everything together in the week starting the >>>>>> 11/11/2013. >>>>>> >>>>>> First we had to see how many M Ohms the detector was, we needed over >>>>>> 15 and we got 2! - you can see us doing this in these images:- >>>>>> >>>>>> We also discovered it had a ‘C’ type High Tension connection and a >>>>>> BNC signal out and gain potentiometer. >>>>>> >>>>>> Since >>>>>> >>>>>> in modern detectors, Safe High Voltage (SHV) connectors are used in >>>>>> place of the ‘C’ type connectors, we did not need the gain adjustment and >>>>>> the resistance was way too low, >>>>>> >>>>>> it was decided by all parties that it would be best to replace the >>>>>> whole internal electronics so that they would play nice with the GS2000 >>>>>> Pro, so Mathieu prepared the detector for when we would receive the new >>>>>> internals. >>>>>> >>>>>> Defkalion >>>>>> >>>>>> In Defkalion’s latest paper with Dr Yeong E. Kim, they have this to >>>>>> say about their observation on gammas. >>>>>> >>>>>> 3.2 Radiation measurements >>>>>> >>>>>> As shown in Fig. 4, no gamma rays outside the energy range of 50 >>>>>> keV–300 keV have been observed from the experiments with the Hyperion R-5 >>>>>> reactor (data are from iso-parabolic calorimeter experiment carried out >>>>>> on >>>>>> May 6, 2013). >>>>>> >>>>>> The original paper can be found here Celani - again >>>>>> >>>>>> So we wanted to experiment to see if we could re-create what Mathieu >>>>>> had seen. Mathieu had become less committed to the events as the >>>>>> experiment >>>>>> went on as it did not appear that they were occurring at the higher >>>>>> temperatures with both wires functioning. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regardless, we therefore called Francesco Celani this week (first on >>>>>> Tue 29/10/2013), a good number of times, about his comments at ICCF-18 >>>>>> and >>>>>> he provided additional information. Essentially, the wire had previously >>>>>> been loaded with H2 and he had attempted to deload it by applying power >>>>>> under vacuum. He then filled the cell with Deuterium and started to raise >>>>>> the temperature. >>>>>> >>>>>> At first there was nothing, but as the mean internal temperature went >>>>>> over around 100ºC, there started to be a near doubling of the background >>>>>> gamma count. They were alarmed, but even though significant, it was not >>>>>> at >>>>>> a level to be of great concern. This continued until the cell internal >>>>>> mean >>>>>> temperature passed through around 160ºC whereafter there was no >>>>>> significant >>>>>> signal. For about 10 minutes, during this raising temperature period, >>>>>> there >>>>>> was the increased gammas and then nothing. Other than Francesco, there >>>>>> were >>>>>> two observers in the room that witnessed the event. As said before, the >>>>>> Deuterium experiment did not seem to produce excess and so was not >>>>>> pursued. >>>>>> >>>>>> From his paper: >>>>>> >>>>>> 23.) We observed, for the first time in our experimentation with such >>>>>> kind of materials, some X (and/or gamma emission), coming-out from the >>>>>> reactor during the increasing of the temperature from about 100°C to >>>>>> 160°C. >>>>>> We used a NaI(Tl) detector, energy range 25-2000keV used as counter >>>>>> (safety >>>>>> purposes), not spectrometer. Total time of such emission was about 600s >>>>>> and >>>>>> clearly detectable, burst like. >>>>>> >>>>>> 24.) About thermal anomalies, we observed, very surprising, that the >>>>>> response was endothermic, not esothermic. The second day the system >>>>>> crossed >>>>>> the zero line and later become clearly eso-thermic. Similar effects were >>>>>> reported also by A. Takahashi and A. Kitamura. >>>>>> >>>>>> 25.) After about 350000s from the beginning of D2 intake the >>>>>> temperature abruptly increased and the wire was broken. We observed that >>>>>> the pressure decreased, because some problems to the reactor gas tight, >>>>>> but >>>>>> at times of 80000s before. The SEM observations showed fusion of a large >>>>>> piece of wire. The shape was like a ball. Further analyses are in >>>>>> progress. >>>>>> >>>>>> It occurred to us that this temperature dependence, having been >>>>>> pointed to it, may be very significant. Mathieu had already seen no extra >>>>>> gammas at higher temperature - could this explain that? Initial >>>>>> experiment >>>>>> to verify gamma emissions >>>>>> >>>>>> Despite Mathieu fearing that the wires were toasted (the cells had >>>>>> been running at 70W for some days and were not producing as much excess >>>>>> as >>>>>> before), we decided to take the wires down to around 150ºC and try to >>>>>> recreate what was apparently happening previously and capture it on >>>>>> camera. >>>>>> >>>>>> Not amazingly conclusive, but the background was around 12-28 and the >>>>>> gamma pulse shortly after the recharge pushed the PER MINUTE average to >>>>>> 40+, meaning a much higher per second pulse. We are looking forward to >>>>>> having the ability to have much more sensitive equipment that can give >>>>>> per >>>>>> second readings and a gamma spectra also. Lead well >>>>>> >>>>>> Because the NaI will be SO much more sensitive than the geiger >>>>>> counter - we will need to shield it in 5cm of lead on all sides except >>>>>> the >>>>>> one that will face the reactor. Maybe make it from 2 concentric cylinders >>>>>> filled with lead… however, we need the lead. >>>>>> >>>>>> Has anyone in France got a load of Lead they could drive over to >>>>>> Mathieu with? If they have, who fancies casting a bit of lead shielding? >>>>>> Possibilities to explore Is it really happening? >>>>>> >>>>>> We need to measure it repeatedly and with a better resolution. We >>>>>> will strive to measure with a Geiger-Muller counter in more controlled >>>>>> conditions, possibly lead shielding, and with more sensitive NaI >>>>>> detectors. >>>>>> We will try to look for total count rates and also the gamma spectrum >>>>>> measurement. Finally, we will try to make a new apparatus that brings a >>>>>> higher density of wire nearer to the detector. If it is happening, what >>>>>> is >>>>>> it related to? >>>>>> >>>>>> Is it being caused by pressure shock? - Test at various pressure >>>>>> levels and step sizes. Pre-heat incoming gas to same temp as gas in cell >>>>>> so >>>>>> as to remove thermal shock. Thermal shock from the cool incoming gas? - >>>>>> Test with some other cool gas like Helium. Try chilling the incoming gas >>>>>> more. Hydrogen flux into the wire? - Does a slow pressure rise work >>>>>> almost >>>>>> as well as a rapid one? Fresh deuterium in new gas? - Add a little >>>>>> supplemental Deuterium and see if the gamma signal gets higher. >>>>>> >>>>>> The EU team can explore: >>>>>> >>>>>> Lower temps and pressures to a few bars. Test with Helium to see if >>>>>> it is a cool gas thing He has more wires on the way to try it again, if >>>>>> necessary, as the September/October experiment wires are not so active >>>>>> after being run at 70W The huge NaI(Tl) detector and electronics en-route >>>>>> will allow for much better >>>>>> >>>>>> The US team can explore: >>>>>> >>>>>> Putting our Geiger counter and NaI gamma detector near our V1.3 cell >>>>>> and try adding gas. We currently have two loaded wires in the active cell >>>>>> to work with. Try adding Deuterium in small amounts. We currently have >>>>>> some >>>>>> heavy water and an electrolysis unit to make some gas. New cell at HUG to >>>>>> test this - Replicate our heavy duty aluminum cell that we have a camera >>>>>> on, but with a full size glass window on the end so we can put it >>>>>> directly >>>>>> up against the Ortech NaI detector face. Inside this cell, we put several >>>>>> pieces of wires wrapped around mica frames, and then we can stack several >>>>>> of those frames all within 5 cm, or so, of the face of the NaI detector. >>>>>> >>>>>> What is the significance? >>>>>> >>>>>> So why should we be excited at the prospect of seeing controllable >>>>>> gamma emissions from our experiments? Well, to put it plain and simple - >>>>>> it >>>>>> would mean that we have a incontrovertible demonstration of Low Energy >>>>>> Nuclear Reactions (LENR). >>>>>> >>>>>> Additionally, knowing the energies of any Gamma emissions would help >>>>>> determine the underlying process and help indicate what power can be >>>>>> achieved by singular events and overall potential yield. Lastly, it will >>>>>> help dictate paths for material science, control, stimulation and safe >>>>>> operation that will take the technology forward. Discussion >>>>>> >>>>>> In the video below, which lasts for around 30 mins, Bob and Mathieu >>>>>> discuss what led up to the decision to follow the evidence and the >>>>>> implications. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >
