" . . . and both incorporate an inflatable, self-bailing type floor that is hydrodynamically tapered to significantly reduce drag."
Wes, one of the big sales points with craft like these is they *do not* have a floor. So, this representation is not quite accurate. The self-bailing component of the raft is a deck that is elevated above the water, so there is no issue with hydrodymanics. "Even in winds that have blown most pontoons off the lake, I've been be able to stay out and fish without much fuss." That's because the craft does not float as high as, say, the PAC 800, and has relatively more surface and water resistance. It's more difficult for wind to push it through the water. For example, the wind even has a more difficult time blowing float tubers off the lake, because of their 'drag' in the water and less vertical exposure to the wind. "In my experience, any instrinsic speed difference between pontoons and the Abel vanishes when the wind is much above 15 mph." Wes, you're supposed to out there fishing, not measuring wind speeds. <grin> How the heck do you tell the difference between, say, a 12 mph wind and a 15 mph wind, or a 20 mph wind and 15 mph wind? I noticed that you did not mention at all the advantage of anchoring up in a pontoon boat, vs. not in the Abel craft. The Abel craft can have an anchoring setup comparable to that in a PAC 800, but a person needs to manufacture or procure an aftermarket device that is like a watered-down rowing frame, thereby removing arguably the largest advantage of the Abel craft (convience of not having to assemble a frame) over the pontoon boat. I acquired an Outcast Super Fat Cat last year, and used that for nearly all of my lake fishing last year purely because of its convenience for walk in spots, relative to my PAC 800. Heck, the Super Fat Cat weighs something like 12 pounds, inflates probably even more quickly than the Abel craft, etc. I have a pretty cool anchoring setup a mad-scientist buddy made for me, and it works pretty well. It doesn't get around nearly as quickly as an oared craft, but unless they are trying to quickly get from point A to point B and unless they are chironomid fishing, the bulk of lake fishing folks troll around using fins anyway. And, if you're chironomid fishing, that anchoring system comes in handy, which the Abel craft does not have. All of these products have their various advantages and disadvantages, which is why I mentioned before that a fisherperson needs to have at least 6 craft to fit the various conditions. The Abel craft is slower in that water than a pontoon boat, which at times is an advantage. However, those characteristics that make the pontoon boat faster make it more susceptible to wind, typically a disadvantage (unless you like to wind mooch). The rowing frame that makes the pontoon boat less convenient and cumbersome than the Abel and weigh more as well, both disadvantages, but the frame is also an advantage to the extent that it gives the craft relatively more rigidity, allows a more efficient rowing setup and opportunity to use longer oars, sits your rear up higher out of the water (pretty nice when the water is, oh, 40 +/- like it will be for the early lake opener or late in the fall), and supplies an anchor setup. Both are great, both are tools, and have their points which may be argued superior or more convenient, convenient, relative to the other. I fished in a few boats last year, too. Prams are obviously much different than the Abel craft, pontoon boats, fat cat type craft, and float tubes, and some of those differences could be effectively argued as advantages and disadvantages; bottom line, they all have their place. However, I can tell you that in the circumstances when I fished out of a boat, it was clearly the superior option relative to an Abel or a pontoon boat. As convenient? No, but convenience wasn't the overriding factor in craft selection. Wes should keep his PAC 800, as it gets him one more craft closer to that perfect boat inventory! Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wes.Neuenschwander (@Home)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 5:14 PM Subject: PAC 800 For Sale (was RE: Abel Travel Craft) Well, I guess I get to disagree with Richard <g>. After 5 years of fishing from a PAC 800, alongside friends in their Tote N Floats, Access rafts and now Abel Travel Crafts, I came to an entirely different conclusion: That is, that the Abel Travel Craft is all-around, a substantially better and more versatile boat than any of the pontoon boats on the market. So I made the switch, picking up an Abel and hanging my PAC 800 up in the garage as a fall back. The bottom line is that I haven't used (or even seriously thought about using) the PAC 800 once since I bought the Abel! Richard is correct that any single hulled boat - like the Abel or Watermaster or Tote N Float will be slower than a similarly sized pontoon boat, just as a catamaran sailboat will be faster than a conventional sailboat. But top speed isn't the only issue. At least as important I think, is mid-speed performance - the kind of speed you use most of the time fishing lakes or rivers or moving about from point to point. And in this respect, I find the Abel to be just about as easy to row - and much more stable and true tracking - as the pontoon boat. One clarification is definitely in order here: The Abel and the Watermaster and the Tote N Float are *not* the same boats. The basic design concept is the same - a small, one-person raft with cut-out floor for foot propulsion and an integral, molded-oarlock rowing system. But the Abel (and the Access that preceeded it) incorporated significant improvements in design and construction that *substantially* improved the performance of the original design. Specifically, the Abel/Access boats are constructed of high performance, thermally welded plastic coated fabric that allows much higher inflation pressures and providing much more rigid and efficient hulls, and both incorporate an inflatable, self-bailing type floor that is hydrodynamically tapered to significantly reduce drag. In addition, the Abel has larger tubes, allowing the craft to ride higher, further minimizing drag. I have rowed both the older Tote N Floats and the newer Abel and Access rafts and the differences in performance are substantial. The Tote N Floats felt like you were rowing a soggy, half-filled wading pool - about 2/3 of each stroke of the oar going to twist and stretch the side tubes - rather than push the boat ahead. The Abel in comparison, glides over the water. Another significant difference between the various boats is weight: The Flote N Tote weighed well over 40 lbs (with carrying case/dry bag and oars) while the Abel is a relatively sprightly 29 lbs, fully outfitted. The PAC 800, by comparison, probably pushes 65 lbs. To me though, the most important difference between pontoon boats and the Abel is in the maneuverability, control and stability while fishing. With the pontoon boat, I was constantly fighting to maintain tracking and a relatively constant heading when rowing, and when fishing was constantly fighting to maintain position and bearing. Even in relatively calm conditions, pontoon boats seem to want to twist and turn. The Abel is a remarkeably stable fishing platform, allowing me to focus on fishing rather than kicking or stroking the oars to maintain position. And with its lower aeroynamic profile and broader footprint, it's significantly less affected by winds than pontoon boats. Even in winds that have blown most pontoons off the lake, I've been be able to stay out and fish without much fuss. This lower aerodynamic profile, incidentally, also means he Abel rows more easily into stiff winds than the pontoon. In my experience, any instrinsic speed difference between pontoons and the Abel vanishes when the wind is much above 15 mph. There are significant advantages in river fishing as well. The ability to maintain a constant track and orientation relative to the bank while floating down the river, allows me to focus on casting instead of rowing or kicking to maintain position. And it's easy to stop and wade/float right from the boat: just hop out of the boat and wade and the raft sticks with you just like an oversized life ring. When you're finished with the run, just hop back up on the seat and float on down to the next one. As far as safety, tremendous floatation, extremely sturdy construction and ample agility make it adequate for most Washington rivers. Portability is certainly a plus, due the much lighter weight of the Abel and the option of packing it in collapsed and inflating it at the lake or river. Personally, I usually inflate the boat at the car using an electric inflator and tranport the fully inflated and loaded boat using a shoulder strap system I devised. Fully loaded, with gear, anchor & oars, food, beer, cigars, radio and a pile of similarly unnessential stuff, I'm still under 605#, which I find at least manageable for the hump into Lenice or Nunnally and a breeze in most other situations. Of course, sans beer, cameras, spare anchor and other sundries, I can get the weight down to 45# lbs or so, which is a breeze most anywhere. I have found a number of other advantages to the Abel as well: - Easier to kick and more responsive to fin control than the pontoon boat (probably due to the low to the water seating position, allowing more effective and direct leg extension). - Very convenient for gear storage (right behind the seat), and secure from accidentally dumping gear overboard. With the pontoon, if you drop something, it's gone. Dropped reel spools, fly boxes, etc. in the Abel end up on the 'floor', not the drink, just like in a real boat. - Very well designed thole pin oar system that allows quick 'shipping' of the oars out of the way when done rowing and equally easy pickup for a quick stroke or two whenever needed. Just drop the oars at either end of the rowing stroke, and the oars fold parallel to the tubes, out of the water, tight against the boat. - Extremely comfortable. The inflatable floor and back rest provide good support and distribute body weight well reducing fatigue and soreness even during long days of fishing. As Richard says, everyone has different needs and there is no perfect boat for everyone and for all types of fishing. Pontoon boats are certainly more popular and their utility and flexibility is well established. But for the person willing to sacrifice a little bit of speed for stability, convenience and comfort, the Able is well definitely worth considering. And, if you decide after all that a pontoon is what you really want, I do have that PAC 800 for sale! -Wes > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Richard Embry > Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 1:20 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Abel Travel Craft > > > I disagree with Sean. > > I had (past tense) a Tote n Float, the predecessor to the > Water Master, which is the craft upon which the Abel boat is > based. All of these are very, very similar. > > These boats have a couple of neat advantages over other boats > that have frames (i.e. pontoon boats). Obviously not having > to deal with a frame, carrying or assembling it, is one. > And, it's pretty neat how the Abel craft and its ilk stores > in to its own carrying pouch. My Tote N Float went with me > on a couple of out-of-state trips as checked baggage, in one > convenient bag. > > The downside that no on addresses is primarily why I got rid > of mine. One of the bummers about float tubes, when you're > trying to get from point A to point B quickly (a term I'm > using loosely here) is you have a round item "pushing" water, > i.e. it's not hydrodynamic. The Abel craft, if you think > about it, is the same. It has a round, blunt end "pushing" > through the water. It is far, far less speedy to get around > in stillwaters than a pontoon boat. Anyone who owns one of > these boats and wants to dispute this, I'll get out my PAC > 800, you get out your Abel, and let's have a race from one > end of Nunnally to the next. The Abel might be half as fast. > > One of the convenient things about the Abel craft (no rowing > frame) is also one of its bad points. Steve Probabsco used > to have a a Tote n Float, and had a rowing frame made for it. > There used to be a raft company here in town that made a > rowing system for them, as well. The oarlock setup on the > Abel, Water Master, Tote n Float, et al, is not really set up > for rough river rafting (either from a durability or leverage > standpoint). Steve used his frame frequently on his boat, > primarily because he could a better angle/leverage than the > stock oarlock setup provides, and he could use longer and > more skookum oars. Also, note that Sean said his buddies > > Now, I'm not bagging on the Abel craft. However, a person > should evaluate those features that mean the most to them. > The pontoon boats have decided advantages (speed, water type > versatility, more durable rowing system with built in anchor > system) over the Abel craft, and the Abel craft has decided > advantages (portability, convenience) over the pontoon boats. > I liked my Tote n Float, it's just that I found a pontoon > boat better fits my needs. > > There is no perfect "boat"; that's why an active fisherperson > needs, oh, at least 5 different types of watercraft. <grin> > > Richard > > P.S. Sean, by the way, if you ever want to get rid of that > Outcast kayak, keep me in mind. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ransom, Sean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 12:56 PM > Subject: RE: Abel Travel Craft > > > I disagree with Chuck. > > The abel (which is pretty much the same boat as the waster > master) is the best all around personal water craft I have > seen yet. Wes and Dan on the list both own them and will > probably chime in as well. > > As far as packing in Wes devised a system for his that allows > him to strap it on after is has been inflated for an easy > hike in to the lakes you mention. The rowing system is also > pretty slick and you can easily stow the oars out of the way > when you are fishing. All you have to do is fold the oars > back and they lock into place out of the way. They are also > pretty fast and low to the water so getting pushed around by > the wind is not as much of a problem as with a pontoon. > > I own the oucast kayak which is comparable to the power pac > but is does not have the rowing frame. I think you saw it > when we fished Nunnally together last year. I do like it but > it is a pain in the arse to pack into a lake. I have tried > devising different carrying systems but nothing has worked > out so far. I still hike it in there but it is not what I > would call easy and/or fun. > > Another cool feature is how easy it is to customize the boat > to your liking. Adding more D-rings can be done by getting > patches you heat up and just stick onto the boat. Super easy. > Wes and Dan have their own anchor system th ey made for their > boats as well and would more than likely be happy to share > that with you as well. > > Also another plus is you can take these things on rivers and > I think they are rated for type 3 rapids and I have heard > some folks have done more. It is nice to have the option to > have a personal boat you can use in rivers as well. You > cannot use a power pac on rivers. Well I guess you could but > outcast does not recommend it. > > > All things considered I do not think there is a better all > around boat on the market. I hope to get one someday but I > need to convince my wife I need yet another inflatable "toy". > > Good luck on your decision, > > -sean > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck S [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 12:37 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Abel Travel Craft > > I played around with one for awhile when S. Abel brought it by the > store. For the money, I thought that the Power Pac from Outcast is > four or five times the boat in several ways. > > Without the rowing frame installed and using a kayak > paddle you have a boat that weighs around 25 lbs for packing > in anywere that gives you twice the room that goes with the > Abel.. Plus when and if you want you still have that frame > you can attach and use as a rowing kayak of sorts. Along > with that you have a motor mount built and can run a > trolling or small gas motor on the boat. > > The price by the way was about the same as you indicated > for the Abel on sale. Another benefit is you can stand and > flyfish from it in still water. i use mine herein Florida all > the time sight fishing the flats. > > As far as a disadvantage or two. When compared to the > Abel, it weights about 8 lbs more without it's frame. If I > recall right the Abel was at 17 lbs? The other dadvantage > would be it's size when packing it uniflated. Due to the > floor sections it folds to a four by two feet by about 10 > inch package without the frame. > > Good Fishing > Chuck S > > http://community.webtv.net/fishing-folks/ChucksEastCentral
