There is at least one commercial successor - https://www.co-meeting.com/ There was also another commercial attempt, which failed but is now open sourced - https://github.com/jorkey/Wiab.pro
On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 12:29 PM Adam Bielski <a_biel...@ymail.com.invalid> wrote: > Hiya all! > I am new to this mailing group and I wanted to further understand the > limitations OR differences that WiaB provides in comparisson to: > > > https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/pie-computing#/entity > > And WHY has there not been a successor (based on the GOOGLE WAVE project) > that has ever been launched for commercial use!? > Cheers! > Adam > 2:29 środa, 2016-3-16, Evan Hughes <ehu...@gmail.com> napisał(a): > > > > > Sorry many mistakes, currently on mobile. Meant to say "the OS editors arnt > bad but....." > On 16/03/2016 11:18 AM, "Evan Hughes" <ehu...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I had a look at quill and react seperatly dismorning, interestingly the > > atom editor is built using react and they have done at least one if not > > more about how they get more performance out of it, moving rendering to > the > > gpu and such. > > > > Do you think itll actually be possible to remove ot somewhat from the > > client, how do we efficently send data to the client that the document > has > > changed. > > > > Also we must be very careful abiut what editor we choose if we arnt > > building one inhouse, debugging could destroy us all. > > > > But the c-rendering we could do inhouse then we would have a basis for > > creating a c-editor from scatch. Not that the OS projects are bad but > its a > > pretty broad featire set we need. > > On 16/03/2016 11:00 AM, "Joseph Gentle" <m...@josephg.com> wrote: > > > >> Sorry, just poking in here - > >> > >> A couple of years ago I worked with QuillJS's author to add OT to > >> quill. Its a rich text editor, which emits user events and Jason (the > >> author) has a module which interprets those events, builds operations > >> and can do OT with them. It doesn't support rich embedding of > >> components yet, but he's working on that now. > >> > >> React's Draft-js might also work well. > >> > >> -J > >> > >> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 11:18 AM, Michael MacFadden > >> <michael.macfad...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > All, > >> > > >> > A few things on the editor. For one. I think ACE is a plain text > >> editor, which I have used for a bunch of things. Has a great API for > >> collaboration integration, but it is not rich text, which is what wave > is > >> all about. So I don’t think that will work. > >> > > >> > Also, I think perhaps I should clarify the term editor. I probably > >> used in inappropriately. > >> > > >> > There are two parts to be concerned with. The first is collaborative > >> rendering. If you are just looking at a blip, you can still see it > change > >> in real time. So this would be collaborative rendering. Then when you > are > >> actively editing a blip, you need a collaborative editor. Both are > >> important. > >> > > >> > The main performance issue comes in two places. First I may have a > >> conversation model that contains hundreds of blips. Some sort of lazy > >> loading strategy here is probably required and smart attaching and > >> detaching of listeners. If you have hundreds of blips all rendered at > once > >> and all having to have listeners attached to them because any one of > them > >> can change at any time you can run into rendering performance issues. > >> Secondarily, if you do have lots of people editing lots of blips, much > of > >> that will not be “on screen” for a given user, and you don’t want to be > >> processing all of those events and messing with the DOM if you don’t > need > >> to. So there are performance and complexity issues there. > >> > > >> > Then there is the actual editor. Building a Rich Text Editor is not > >> trivial (still.. How can this be???). So you have to deal with all the > >> issues of building a rich text editor. Then on top of that you want to > >> integrate remote cursors, selections, authorship, etc. into that editor. > >> Most editors do not have that (a few do, and some are easier than > others to > >> add that). So there is complexity here as well. > >> > > >> > If you want to use an open source editor you need one that does the > >> kind of rich text editing you want to do. It needs to either have the > >> collaboration capabilities (shared cursors, etc.) that you want, or it > has > >> to be reasonably easy to implement them yourself. And it needs to have > a > >> good enough eventing API for you to hook into it to capture local > changes, > >> and to have API to allow you to drive remote changes into it. > >> > > >> > The point being that, the conversation renderer and rich text editor > is > >> a very non-trivial component, if the assumption is to roughly replicate > >> what is there. > >> > > >> > > >> > One point I definitely agree with is that the editor itself really > >> should know nothing about OT. It should be decoupled and just needs to > >> have a good API with good events. > >> > > >> > ~Michael > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 3/15/16, 10:11 AM, "Pablo Ojanguren" <pablo...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > > >> >>Talking about editors I suggest ace from mozilla, > >> >>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ace_%28editor%29 > >> >> > >> >>BTW, as example, this is an app we are developing on with SwellRT as > >> >>backend: http://staging.teem.works , -it is the staging version, you > >> can > >> >>play! ;)- > >> >> > >> >>2016-03-15 17:12 GMT+01:00 Yuri Z <vega...@gmail.com>: > >> >> > >> >>> No, not really. Javascript on client side is enough - this is how it > >> was > >> >>> originally implemented in microwave by antimatter. > >> >>> > >> >>> On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 6:08 PM Thomas Wrobel <darkfl...@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> > Ah, right. I am all for realtime, merely that I was also happy to > >> lose > >> >>> > it if it meant significantly more simple implementation. > >> >>> > > >> >>> > >>"Otherwise we can use Robot > >> >>> > >>API - like in https://github.com/vega113/microbox"; > >> >>> > > >> >>> > Not keen on RobotAPI as every time I read its use it seems to need > >> an > >> >>> > extra server in the chain/ > >> >>> > ie; > >> >>> > ...<>WaveServer <> Google App Engine <> client > >> >>> > > >> >>> > It should be possible with the web today to avoid that and have > >> >>> > clients connect directly to the wave server no? (hopefully using > the > >> >>> > same protocol as any desktop/mobile client). > >> >>> > Of course, I assume you could run host both servers on the same > >> >>> > hardware, but still seems unnecessary to have that extra step. > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > -- > >> >>> > http://lostagain.nl <-- our company site. > >> >>> > http://fanficmaker.com <-- our, really,really, bad story > generator. > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > On 15 March 2016 at 16:48, Yuri Z <vega...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >>> > > Yeah, the intention is to have realtime editing. Otherwise we > can > >> use > >> >>> > Robot > >> >>> > > API - like in https://github.com/vega113/microbox > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 5:45 PM Thomas Wrobel < > >> darkfl...@gmail.com> > >> >>> > wrote: > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > >> Does it need to be OT aware on that scale? I thought that was > >> only > >> >>> > >> needed to have fully realtime blip updating rather then a > "edit + > >> >>> > >> submit" system. (whereupon the differences could be calculated > >> >>> > >> separately from the editing) > >> >>> > >> Is the intention then to still have realtime editing ? or is > this > >> >>> > >> needed anyway regardless? > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> I admit I only know the basics of OT and am vaguely > remembering a > >> >>> > >> conversation about realtime blip editing adding complexity to > >> things. > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> -- > >> >>> > >> http://lostagain.nl <-- our company site. > >> >>> > >> http://fanficmaker.com <-- our, really,really, bad story > >> generator. > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> On 15 March 2016 at 16:30, Yuri Z <vega...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >>> > >> > Not really. You would need to make it OT aware. and then make > >> it > >> >>> > >> efficient. > >> >>> > >> > Lot's of effort. > >> >>> > >> > > >> >>> > >> > On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 5:24 PM Thomas Wrobel < > >> darkfl...@gmail.com> > >> >>> > >> wrote: > >> >>> > >> > > >> >>> > >> >> As a side, I noticed Michael MacFadden mentioned building a > >> rich > >> >>> text > >> >>> > >> >> editor in the browser, this much at least have been done in > >> GWT > >> >>> > >> >> libraries; > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > > >> >>> > >> > http://www.gwtproject.org/javadoc/latest/com/google/gwt/user/client/ui/RichTextArea.html > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> Its fairly basic, but then, I would assume to start with at > >> least > >> >>> any > >> >>> > >> >> new wave client should stay fairly basic? > >> >>> > >> >> -- > >> >>> > >> >> http://lostagain.nl <-- our company site. > >> >>> > >> >> http://fanficmaker.com <-- our, really,really, bad story > >> >>> generator. > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> On 15 March 2016 at 15:48, Yuri Z <vega...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> >>> > >> >> > Yeah, we need to re-use the existing editor. Patches would > >> be > >> >>> > great! > >> >>> > >> >> > > >> >>> > >> >> > On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 4:46 PM Pablo Ojanguren < > >> >>> > pablo...@gmail.com> > >> >>> > >> >> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >> > > >> >>> > >> >> >> Hi, > >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> >> I agree with the dependency hell issue and the suggestion > >> for > >> >>> > >> throwing > >> >>> > >> >> >> away the GWT client. This would require a new > >> client-server API > >> >>> as > >> >>> > >> >> >> suggested, however I think a Rest API won't be enough, > >> because > >> >>> > real > >> >>> > >> >> editing > >> >>> > >> >> >> needs websocket. > >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> >> I also agree with Michael, developing a new editor is a > >> massive > >> >>> > >> task, so > >> >>> > >> >> >> we should use an existing one and plug it in the new API. > >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> >> To write again the server in other language would be > >> great, but > >> >>> I > >> >>> > >> think > >> >>> > >> >> it > >> >>> > >> >> >> requires a huge effort. > >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> >> I will be happy to help in decoupling the server-client, > I > >> can > >> >>> > >> provide > >> >>> > >> >> the > >> >>> > >> >> >> experience from my fork. And I plan to send some patches > >> to Wave > >> >>> > >> soon. > >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> >> These are some slides about my fork (swellrt) it could > >> give you > >> >>> > some > >> >>> > >> >> ideas: > >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > > >> >>> > >> > https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1WFDS_m7eyNjBjcdPs0zH496Y9bMSl0_JnSEYGjxNFn0/edit?usp=sharing > >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > > >> >>> > >> > https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/18hMYyECo5EmQsrAb8DT6SkO7LksWVJnhdZmqeCsar4c/edit?usp=sharing > >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> >> btw, I would like to start a business providing these > >> SwellRT > >> >>> > >> services. > >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> >> 2016-03-14 23:27 GMT+01:00 Joseph Gentle <m...@josephg.com > >: > >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> I've been playing with the idea of starting a company > >> around a > >> >>> > >> rewrite > >> >>> > >> >> of > >> >>> > >> >> >>> wave for years. > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> -J > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> On Tuesday, 15 March 2016, Adam Bielski > >> >>> > <a_biel...@ymail.com.invalid > >> >>> > >> > > >> >>> > >> >> >>> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > Hiya all!I wish I could find out who is potentially > >> >>> interested > >> >>> > in > >> >>> > >> >> >>> creating > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > the WAVE for a commercial service/productwith my seed > >> >>> > >> startup!Cheers! > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > Adam > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > 20:23 poniedziałek, 2016-3-14, Zachary Yaro < > >> >>> > zmy...@gmail.com > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > <javascript:;>> napisał(a): > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > I am inclined to agree with Yuri—if the alternative > >> >>> > >> implementation > >> >>> > >> >> can > >> >>> > >> >> >>> be > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > developed in parallel around the same protocol, that > >> would > >> >>> seem > >> >>> > >> to be > >> >>> > >> >> >>> the > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > best scenario, but the existing codebase should be > kept > >> >>> because > >> >>> > >> it is > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > (AFAIK) the most functional implementation of the > >> protocol. > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > Zachary Yaro > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > On Mar 14, 2016 15:05, "Yuri Z" <vega...@gmail.com > >> >>> > >> <javascript:;>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > I think that more "wavy" projects are nice, but IMO > it > >> >>> > doesn't > >> >>> > >> >> mean we > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > should abandon Apache Wave as it is now. I agree > >> there are > >> >>> a > >> >>> > >> lot of > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > issues > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > with current code, but I think there's still value > as > >> >>> people > >> >>> > can > >> >>> > >> >> see > >> >>> > >> >> >>> what > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > Wave can potentially be. > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 8:46 AM Evan Hughes < > >> >>> > >> >> wisebald...@apache.org > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > <javascript:;>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > wrote: > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > The link for those who wish to join, Ill also add > >> this > >> >>> link > >> >>> > >> onto > >> >>> > >> >> the > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > new > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > website. > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > https://www.hipchat.com/gsModF8CY > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > On Sun, 13 Mar 2016 at 12:12 Michael MacFadden < > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > michael.macfad...@gmail.com <javascript:;>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > wrote: > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > Yeah. Chatting is fine and beneficial. We just > >> need to > >> >>> > make > >> >>> > >> >> sure > >> >>> > >> >> >>> we > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > capture key decisions and rationale back in the > >> list > >> >>> for > >> >>> > >> all to > >> >>> > >> >> >>> see. > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > ~Michael > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > On Mar 12, 2016, at 6:07 PM, Evan Hughes < > >> >>> > >> >> >>> wisebald...@apache.org > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > <javascript:;>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > wrote: > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > It does not so as Ive seen other projects > state > >> this > >> >>> > motto > >> >>> > >> >> "If > >> >>> > >> >> >>> its > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > not > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > on > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > the mailing list it didnt happen at all", but > >> allows > >> >>> > for > >> >>> > >> non > >> >>> > >> >> >>> formal > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > talk > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > and back and forth discussion realtime. The > >> Monthly > >> >>> > >> reports > >> >>> > >> >> >>> that we > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > talked > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > about back when we did the hangout session > >> should > >> >>> > >> probably be > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > picked > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > up > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > again, ill add it to the monthly todo's. > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > On Sun, 13 Mar 2016 at 11:58 Michael > MacFadden < > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > michael.macfad...@gmail.com <javascript:;>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > wrote: > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >> One follow up question though. Does hip hat > >> store > >> >>> > >> >> conversations > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > in a > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >> publicly accessible manner? If not, we need > >> to make > >> >>> > sure > >> >>> > >> >> key > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > decisions > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >> that come out of chats are captured and > >> discussed on > >> >>> > the > >> >>> > >> >> >>> mailing > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > list > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > for > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >> all to see. > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >> ~Michael > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>> On Mar 12, 2016, at 7:15 AM, Evan Hughes < > >> >>> > >> >> >>> wisebald...@apache.org > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > <javascript:;>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > wrote: > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>> I would get infra to make us a hipchat > >> channel so > >> >>> we > >> >>> > >> have > >> >>> > >> >> some > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > place > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > to > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>> talk casually web interface / irc, but seesm > >> the > >> >>> > jira's > >> >>> > >> >> down. > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > Looking > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > to > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>> getting this rolling in some way or another > >> by mid > >> >>> > week. > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>> ~ Evan > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 at 19:48 Evan Hughes < > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > wisebald...@apache.org <javascript:;>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>> The client-server protocol would define a > >> protobuf > >> >>> > and > >> >>> > >> >> json > >> >>> > >> >> >>> rest > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >> services > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>> so any language that support protocol > buffers > >> >>> would > >> >>> > be > >> >>> > >> >> able > >> >>> > >> >> >>> to > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > make > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > a > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>> client or fallback to the json rest. > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 at 19:24 Andreas Kotes > < > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >> count-apache....@flatline.de <javascript:;>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> FWIW, > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> I also consider the idea pretty good and > >> would > >> >>> want > >> >>> > >> >> stronger > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > decoupling > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> of server/client. I'd be interested in a > >> python > >> >>> > client > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > implementation, > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> mostly for CLI and bot integration. > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> Not sure whether doing a client-side C > >> >>> > implementation > >> >>> > >> of > >> >>> > >> >> the > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> communication protocol would be best here > >> (so > >> >>> > wrapper > >> >>> > >> for > >> >>> > >> >> >>> more > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >> languages > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> can follow), or whether native Python > would > >> be > >> >>> > >> better. We > >> >>> > >> >> >>> need > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >> something > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> for non-Java folks in any case, I think. > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> Cheers, > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> count > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>> On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 10:52:34AM +1000, > >> Evan > >> >>> > Hughes > >> >>> > >> >> >>> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>> Thankyou all for your feedback and > >> expressions > >> >>> of > >> >>> > >> >> >>> interests, > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > seems > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >> like > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> we > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>> may be able to develop some teams > together > >> to > >> >>> make > >> >>> > >> this > >> >>> > >> >> a > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > faster > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >> reality > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>> than just I. Hopefully we can get some > more > >> >>> > people to > >> >>> > >> >> >>> express > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >> interests > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> in > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>>> this way forward. > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> -- > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> Andreas 'count' Kotes > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> Taming computers for humans since 1990. > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> "Don't ask what the world needs. Ask what > >> makes > >> >>> you > >> >>> > >> come > >> >>> > >> >> >>> alive, > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > and > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > go > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >> do > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> it. > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> Because what the world needs is people who > >> have > >> >>> > come > >> >>> > >> >> >>> alive." -- > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > Howard > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >>>>> Thurman > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >> > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > > >> >>> > >> > > >> > > > >
