MOU,

Take Verdana out of your list and it won't look so "cruddy". Problem with
sizing for Verdana is that is significantly larger at the same pt/px size
than any of the rest of the fonts in your list. So if the visitor doesn't
have it and gets Arial it can be unreadable.

See http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/verdana.html 

Personally if I'm going to specify one of the "web fonts" I'll use Tahoma
over Verdana precisely because it isn't so wide.

BTW, setting font sizes at 80% makes them illegible on my computer. With
more and more high resolution screens making each px smaller because it is
too big on the designer's screen can cause a lot of accessibility issues for
people who wouldn't otherwise have a problem. I'm currently using a Toshiba
m205 tablet pc. The screen size is 12.1" and the resolution is 1400x1050. As
we all know using an LCD at a resolution other than its default results in
text that is less sharp. To compensate I run large fonts but that still
leaves the physical size of my fonts smaller than windows default on my 15"
1024x768 laptop. 

Since the true physical width of my tablet is 10" that means there are 140
physical per physical inch. At windows default the font size is 15px or
slightly over 1/10th of a physical inch. You can do the math from there.
That's why I've gone to using Firefox as my default browser so I can always
over ride those settings. Otherwise I would not be able to use about half of
the websites I go to on a regular basis. In my particular case pts are
better than px because pts will honor my large font settings, while px does
not. However, cross platform pts are worse than pixels.

As far as IE 5 goes, I've got whole sites that haven't had an IE 5 hit in
months.  While hobby sites still get a decent percentage of IE 5 visitors
(the http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2004/September/browser.php show it down
to 13% there (a 4% decrease since June) other sites like the W3C show that
browser is dying off (6% I think last time I checked but the url wasn't
resolving for me this morning to check
(http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp). 

Frankly, I'd rather a site look not quite the way I want and the visitor be
able to read it than have a site that they couldn't use. As far as who uses
smallest on IE anyway, I do when I visit my father. His vision is bad due to
diabetes so he runs 800x600 on a 20" monitor. I don't want to change his
screen resolution (if I forget to change it back he would have trouble
seeing to reset it) and it is easier to walk him through changing it back
than it is into changing his screen resolution.

Cheryl D. Wise
Certified Professional Web Developer
MS-MVP-FrontPage
www.wiserways.com
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
713.353.0139 Office

-----Original Message-----
From: Ross Clutterbuck 

Joseph n rudy:

> here's a tip:  do not assign font size don't give them pixels, don't 
> give them ems, don't give them keywords don't set font size at all 
> then have a look at your page in various browsers

Now y'see I've never agreed with this sort of approach. OK it does mean that
the visitor has got full control over text resizing if required, but I find
the results to be just horrendous when you're trying to work within a theme
or feel for your site - the fonts I tend to use (Verdana, Tahoma, Trebuchet
MS, etc. to give the Windows names) tend to look cruddy at the
browser-driven paragraphc size (looks to be about 13-14 pixels on my setup)
and a lot of the time H1 and H2 are just too big.

Also IE5/Win has got a bloody horrible resizing bug where the differences in
each size setting are massive (even worse when using CSS keywords), so
things get out of hand when extreme settings are being used in that browser.

The sans-size definition approach does have its place in certain areas, but
given improvements in technology on the web today, web design is becoming
are more intricate and expansive area, even an artform if you have a look at
the CSS Zen Garden. Designers/developers are pushing the boundaries on what
we see on the web nowadays and every little aspect of a site's style and
theme are wanting to be controlled.

IMO just leaving out font sizes and letting the browser do the rest just
because we're guaranteed user-sizable text seems to be an outdated mindset
to think in - there's plenty that can be done to get the text we
designers/developers want it and still keep things fluid and user-friendly
for the end-user.

I've been using a trick to keep EM sizes under control for a while now and
it works fantastic for me: in your CSS, declare a rule for the body element
and set it's font-size in there to 100%. You can then freely specify EM
units for font sizes in other rules without silliness taking over. Example:

body {
    font-size: 100%;
}

h1 {
    font-size: 1.5em;
}

p {
    font-size: 0.8em;
}

Those sort of sizes, I feel, give a nice standard size to work from - it
doesn't get too small when the browser uses a smaller setting (who ever uses
IE's "smallest" setting anyway? I've never found a study which ever mentions
people use it) and still shows nice n chunky on larger settings without
being ridiculous or naffing up the design's feel.

The only thing you will need to worry about, as isthe case with CS in
general, is that you don't start inheriting font-sizes from different
elements - I've had a few minor bugs crop up where I've had a <div>
font-size declared at somthing like 0.8em but accidentally had a paragraph
inside that <div> declared at 0.7em (just something sightly smaller than I
thought was standard for that div) - the bloody text came out microscopic
because I was actually declaring 70% of the div's setting which was already
80% of the master page size!

But keep an eye open and it's easy to spot and resolve.

Just some thoughts.

MOU


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