here, here Click on the Apple website on "Store", ".Mac" and "Music Store" and they all run on WebObjects - ie all the online services. Not going away and quite a good advert for the technology!
Clive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Hill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Ken Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "WebObjects Dev Apple" <webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 9:57 PM Subject: Re: Marketing WO > WO is alive and vibrant and we just lost the anchor of Xcode and > platform confusion! I just did a quick search on SourceForge for > WebObjects. 27 projects. I was surprised. > > Chuck > > P.S. One final thought. Given that Apple is deprecating the tools, > anyone want to guess how many WO developers at Apple use Xcode for > WebObjects? ;-) > > > > On Aug 13, 2006, at 1:48 PM, Ken Anderson wrote: > > > Same here. > > > > The one thing I think is very important is to take a page from the > > Republican playbook. Stop saying "WO isn't dead". I would like to > > have a funeral for that phrase, because the more people say it, the > > more people ask the question - "Is WO dead?". > > > > What say you! ? > > > > Ken > > > > On Aug 13, 2006, at 4:38 PM, Chuck Hill wrote: > > > >> Hi, > >> > >> I have been trying to keep my mouth shut on this, not something > >> that I am good at. :-) Pierce said so many smart things that I > >> feel compelled to ride on hit coattails and chime in a bit. > >> > >> > >> On Aug 13, 2006, at 11:07 AM, Pierce T. Wetter III wrote: > >>> > >>> I challenge the fundamental premise of this thread. > >>> > >>> Bottom Line: > >>> > >>> The collection of people who know/love WebObjects need to start > >>> thinking of themselves as "The WebObjects Community" and start > >>> thinking of Apple as "one of the major contributors to WebObjects". > >>> > >>> That is, even without any NDA info, I can easily point out from > >>> what Apple has > >>> said long ago in public that they consider WebObjects more of a > >>> technology then a product. That happened when they made it free > >>> on MacOSX. > >>> > >>> Yet these days, a thriving internet technology needs a thriving > >>> community. We need to stop expecting Apple to lead WebObjects > >>> somewhere. > >> > >> Yes. Yes. Yes. We need to stop moaning, "Somebody needs to do > >> something!". And that means YOU not some other anonymous reader > >> of this list. A lot of us have already done a lot of work with > >> blogs, pod casts, videos, Open Source contributions, books, > >> training etc. It is time to put up or shut up. > >> > >> > >>> Apple uses WO in house to a huge extent. They are going to > >>> continue to maintain and enhance WO. So its not, and never will > >>> be "dead", despite the rumors every year. > >> > >> Right. WO is not dead and is not going to be dead. The question > >> is not "Is WO dead?" but "What are we as the community going to > >> do, whine or make the things we say that we need?" Apple does not > >> need them so it is not going to make them. > >> > >> > >> > >>> But at this point the community has surpassed Apple. It wasn't > >>> Apple who worked so hard to get WOLips working, write an EOModel > >>> editor from scratch, or write a Rules editor they now consider > >>> superior to their own. Every day there is more open source code > >>> in "WebObjects" as used by most WO developers. At some point, the > >>> community will have contributed more source to WO then Apple has. > >>> [if they haven't already, I haven't compared the source output > >>> from the jad decompiler to Wonder lately.] > >>> > >>> "Lead, Follow, or Get Out of the Way". > >> > >> Amen. Absolutely need a WYSIWYG editor? Make one! Don't whine > >> about how what others have made for their needs does not fit your > >> needs. They don't have any obligation to make one for you and > >> probably no interest, otherwise they would have already done it. > >> We are all developers, if the need is great we can do it. We all > >> know how it goes: define the requirements, decide on architecture, > >> generate the specifications, write the documentation and test > >> plan, develop the code, test it, and release. It is what we do > >> every day. We need to get organized. > >> > >> > >>> Apple hasn't really been leading WO since about 5.0. They > >>> haven't been following the community either, because there's been > >>> no community. (In fact, its only the last year or so that WO > >>> programmers have started thinking of themselves as a community.) > >>> I can't tell you what Apple said at WWDC, but I can tell you my > >>> take: Apple is getting out of the way. > >> > >> And while you really can't tell it from the recent messages on the > >> list, the community did really gel at WWDC. I was very positive > >> on Friday. Now, reading all this on the list, I am feeling much > >> less so. > >> > >> > >>> It's up to us to rise to the challenge. > >>> > >>> Recently, as part of my job search, I was talking to the > >>> President of a firm that employs about 20 WO programmers. He told > >>> me that he was worried about the future of WO, so he was trying > >>> to port some of his stuff to Hibernate/Struts. > >>> > >>> It was impossible (a hello world app requires 200 lines of XML > >>> code first...), so now he's shopping for a J2EE technology that > >>> is as capable as WO. He hasn't found one. > >> > >> And, as most of us know, he isn't going to find one. > >> > >> > >>> There are quite a few WO shops out there who have built up > >>> their own in-house libraries. That's one of the key competitive > >>> advantages of WO: the more work you do, the more you can get done. > >>> > >>> Perhaps those houses need to stop thinking of the other WO > >>> consultants as your competition and start thinking of them as > >>> your allies. You need to start contributing to Wonder, so that > >>> you and your allies get web applications jobs rather then the > >>> hordes of nameless idiot J2EE developers. > >> > >>> That is, the stronger the WO community as a whole becomes, the > >>> richer everyone in the WO community gets. So if you work at as WO > >>> consulting firm, have you thought about open-sourcing your > >>> internal frameworks? Would you rather make $150/hour doing WO or > >>> $75/hour editing XML files in Hibernate? When you keep your > >>> internal frameworks proprietary, that's the choice you're making. > >> > >> And GVC has done just this. The frameworks that we once > >> considered (correctly too I might add) our competitive advantage > >> are now Open Source (http://sourceforge.net/projects/gvcsitemaker > >> in case you missed it). We are updating these and will > >> periodically post new versions. Anything we develop in the future > >> will be Open Sourced as well. Take a look at the reusable code > >> you have laying around (and not reusable stuff as examples too). > >> Can it be Open Sourced? > >> > >> > >>> Which brings us to the premise of the thread. > >>> > >>> We're WO developers, not marketeers. We don't need to market > >>> WO, we need to contribute our code to the community. With a > >>> thriving community comes interest, O'Reilly books, and magazine > >>> articles. WO is a development system, not a new car, having an ad > >>> won't get people interested. > >> > >> Yep, ever seen an ad for Ruby on Rails? > >> > >>> If we do that, I think we'll find that more and more of what > >>> Apple does with WO gets open sourced. They already contribute to > >>> Wonder. When the community reaches the point that the closed > >>> source portion of WO is only 25% of the total, I think that either: > >>> > >>> 1. We won't need Apple anymore at all and someone may dig in > >>> and replace everything. > >>> 2. Apple will open source the rest. > >>> > >>> So we need not market WebObjects. Market yourself as a web > >>> application developer, and realize that one of the best ways to > >>> market yourself as an app developer is to contribute to the > >>> community. When I was an independent consultant, every time I > >>> contributed back to the community, I was able to bill at a higher > >>> rate, because people/firms who contribute to the community end up > >>> being recognized as experts by that community. I reaped far more > >>> then I sowed. > >> > >> One other thing we can do to help ourselves is to generate > >> awareness of WebObjects locally. Is there a Java user group in > >> your area? Give a presentation on WebObjects. "Java Runs Ruby > >> Off the Rails" ought to get quite an audience. The more technical > >> people that know about WO, the more people will want it. That > >> means more business for us and a larger community. > >> > >> > >>> None of this required any NDA knowledge (I had these thoughts > >>> before the show.) so you non-WWDC attendees can feel free to > >>> chime in before whatever public announcements come. > >>> > >>> One non-Apple thing I took away from the show: There are > >>> actually more WO programmers then there have been in the past > >>> (post-bubble was especially bad), and that we all have started to > >>> think of ourselves as a community. > >>> > >>> _Apple_ may only be making a few _billion_ a year on WO (if you > >>> count the iTunes Music Store), but there are quite a few of us > >>> making money on WO beyond that. So the community isn't going to > >>> go away and WebObjects isn't going to go away. So enough FUD! > >>> > >>> Instead, lets make the community so strong, that in two years, > >>> Apple is proposing to US what it would like to see in WO, and > >>> we're considering it... > >> > >> Now THAT I would like to see! > >> > >> Chuck > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Coming sometime... - an introduction to web applications using > >> WebObjects and Xcode http://www.global-village.net/wointro > >> > >> Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their > >> overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve > >> specific problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/ > >> practical_webobjects > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > >> Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) > >> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > >> http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/lists% > >> 40anderhome.com > >> > >> This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > -- > Coming sometime... - an introduction to web applications using > WebObjects and Xcode http://www.global-village.net/wointro > > Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their > overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific > problems. http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. > Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) > Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: > http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/clive%40co-ordination.com > > This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > _______________________________________________ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to archive@mail-archive.com
