On Sunday 09 December 2001 11:57 am, Tavis Rudd wrote: > On Sunday 09 December 2001 08:13, Chuck Esterbrook wrote: > > On Saturday 08 December 2001 12:16 pm, Tavis Rudd wrote: > > > That's the whole point, many tools are designed on this > > > assumption and have dockbars down the left side or use multiple > > > vertical frames. 80 might be a bit zealous, but code does get > > > ugly in many tools when wider than 80. > > > > I just tested this theory with emacs, kate and wingide. The code > > never gets ugly in kate and wingide, because they don't wrap. The > > code does get ugly in emacs because of wrapping. Not to mention the > > up and down arrow keys in emacs are paragraph-oriented instead of > > visible-line-oriented. (bleck) > > I wasn't thinking about Emacs as one of these tools; rather: > > * grep on the command line
commandLine.width does not equal 80. I don't know what makes you think it is... And with the filename embedded on a grep *.py you're back to wrapping on an 80 column terminal anyway. > * viewcvs diff screens on the web Doesn't this scale as you shrink or enlarge your browser? I thought it was just "normal" HTML that word wrapped? > * any other visual diff tool They're all set to 80? I don't believe that. As one example, NeXTstep's didn't care how wide your file was and that was a damn good thing since .csv and logs are often wider. > * syncmail, the cvs checkin notifier which sends diffs as emails. > Emails wrap at 76 columns in most clients. Now you just pointed out that 80 is NOT the standard.... BTW Most if not all of the e-mail clients I have used wrap incoming messages to the window/terminal width, not to a pretermined value like "76". I think you're mostly thinking of outgoing messages. And in that case I think it's more like 72 not 76. > * KDevelop Don't know much about it; haven't tested it like the others. Does anyone use it for Python? > > In general, I'm not seeing that tools are designed around the > > assumption that text files stop at 80 columns. > > stop thinking of text files ... rather 'source files' which are > higly sensitive to newlines. Which are not hurt by command line tools like grep, cvs diff, But your width=80 solution leaves me wrapping lines much more often than I should have to bother with, and lots of unused real estate. > > In all three products, sizing the window to be wide enough for 130 > > characters actually felt excessive to me, but 110-120 felt fine. I > > have 19" monitor with 1152x864. > > 80 is THE standard. Like Ian said anything else is being arbitrary > without good reason. No, wait, I thought you said 76.... ;-) The reason is to use the resources you have. Besides, when viewing a file that is wider than your display, there shouldn't be any problems. And there aren't any with a slew of editors, save for emacs, which has other problems as well. > This is nothing to do with emacs. 80 columns is a well established > standard, for bloody good reasons. Why deviate? As far as I know, > Webware is the only large Open Source Python project that: > - uses Tabs > - has run-on lines > - consistently uses ''' instead of """ for docstrings. And emacs is the only editor out of many that can't handle it. How ridiculous. The earlier points about grep, e-mail, etc. don't hold water so we're still left with emacs as the problem. > Why don't we just follow the well established style guidelines for > Python and end this debate once and for all? > > ----From the Python Style Guidelines [Guido] > Maximum Line Length > > There are still many devices around that are limited to 80 > character lines. The default wrapping on such devices looks > ugly. Therefore, please limit all lines to a maximum of 79 characters > (Emacs wraps lines that are exactly 80 characters long.) Because I don't have funky "devices" from the 1980's. I have mutliple editors, horizontal scrolling, resizable windows and terminals, different font sizes and programs that can wrap to visible boundaries. In fact, I'm inundated with these capabilities in almost every program and on every Linux distro. Getting back to constructive solutions: I have always found pros and cons to various editors and use whichever editor suits me best. On Linux I use kate, gedit, pico and wing depending on the situation and project. I could go back to each project and demand they change their style until all projects look good in all editors. I think that would be silly. Would it kill Tavis and Ian to run one of the other editors when using Webware source? You've already rejected lobbying for emacs to be fixed and fixing emacs. You've even rejected what I thought were easy solutions like "make window bigger" and "tweak fonts". And it really is just one program we're talking about. -Chuck _______________________________________________ Webware-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-devel
