Follow-up Comment #2, bug #9913 (project wesnoth): [quote="Mysterious Man in the Shadows"]Browsing the revision, I see a number of other maps where the original designer is not credited. [/quote]
I very much appreciate that you've gone on the attack here without first doing any research on the subject or talking to me about the motivations/process behind it. [i]Important Point #1[/i]: The character, distinctiveness, and [i]identiy[/i] of a map are not determined by the name of that map. If an alligator slowly morphs into a gorilla over the course of two years, you probably shouldn't still be calling it an alligator. I'm guessing that the arguments for the current Charge (soon to be renamed) still being called Charge and credited to PG would be equivalent to "Oh, well the gorilla still has eyes. It still has four limbs." I'd like anyone interested to try the following exercise: Consider fiev things that give a map its identity. Write them down. I'd like you to consider the [i]distinguishing qualities[/i] (attributes that make it different from all other maps) and characteristics of this map: [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/docpaterson/AncientCharge.jpg[/IMG] Write them down. (Try to avoid writing things that would be true of just about any random map.) Now consider the [i]distinguishing qualities[/i](attributes that make it different from all other maps) and characteristics of this map: [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/docpaterson/August25Charge.jpg[/IMG] Write them down. Consider above all else the core dynamics; the ways in which certain unit types and factions will move and deploy, the dimensions of the maps, where fronts form, which playerside will move and react in what way. Compare your two lists. I have written volumes on this subject already, and I wish that you, Mysterious Man in the Shadows, had bothered to read them or had presented any real sort of argument while the subject was being discussed. A random user made map would probably be more similar to the old Charge than this current "Charge" is to the old Charge. Arguing that PG should be credited as a designer for the current "Charge" is absolutely ridiculous to me (see the above alligator analogy), and I find it offensive that anyone would be so ignorant as to claim that I'm "taking credit" for anyone else's work here. [quote="Mysterious Man in the Shadows"]It should be comparatively easy to dig the forums and ask around for knowledge of the original designer. [/quote] Again, it's a shame that you know nothing about the subject in which you're arguing. In fact I did make a thread about this quite some time ago, in which I asked the community to do all that they could to find the original authors of some of our ancient maps (which, incidentally, either no longer exist, or have been altered to the point of complete distinctiveness). Everything that they uncovered is reflected in the current credits, though truly, there was not much to be found. Arguing that our current King of the Hill, for example, (by Bec) is anything like the original would be ludicrous. If someone wants to try to make a convincing argument though, I'd love to hear it. The core concept of a "profitable but dangerous center area" is far too generic a gaming concept to give someone creative credit for, and is almost certainly not worth the added text-clutter of "Designed by Becephalus, based very loosely on a concept by an unknown user." In cases where new maps do still hold, in the slightest degree, to the core qualities of their originals, I gave credit where it was due. The current Castle Hopping Isle, for example, has a PG credit, as does Clash- though in both cases, the revisions made by Bec (CH Isle, which I also worked on, though less so than Bec) and myself (Clash) completely changed the maps [b]to the point that it is now possible to play balanced games on them.[/b] This last point is massively significant- I'm not sure how else to convey the fact that [i]these are not simply "edits"[/i], they are reinventions of vaguely formed, awkward concepts. [quote="Mysterious Man in the Shadows"] Getting due credit for what they've actually done (as an editor, so designated, of a map, or even as an original map designer, for e.g. Den of Onis) may be more beneficial even for Doc P than having to face accusations of stealing credit for someone else's original work.[/quote] If someone would like to make any accusation of the kind, I am, as you can see, more than willing to defend myself. Anonymous [quote="Mysterious Man in the Shadows"]The revision adds "Designed by" to MP objectives (a somewhat odd change in itself, akin to a degree of self-promotion, but I'll let the devs discuss whether this is really wanted). [/quote] This idea began a long time ago, as detailed above, and has been discussed with several devs. I began to consider map credits as a possibility after careful consideration of a long-standing problem- The channels of feedback are scrambled by the fact that users do not know who to discuss the maps with, who to send complaints to, who to talk to about a potential mod or idea for improvement. I gave Bec autonomy over all of his maps, and yet I very frequently get PMs from users asking me to change things, to explain this or that, even, in slightly-more-informed but equally misguided cases, to "make Bec fix x section of y map." Feedback is extremely, [i]extremely[/i] important with these maps, as the immense complexity resulting from the hundreds of potential matchups on all of our official maps create a situation where small problems will slip through the cracks, and will, [i]as has often been the case up to this point[/i], fade away, perhaps circulated in conversation a few times amoung a few players, but ultimately lost. Even many of our more experienced players, from whom feedback would be even more important, have no idea who to talk to about any given map (I recently observed a game in which F8 Binds announced, during a game that included 5-6 spectating "vets," "Paterson made all of the 1v1s. Becephalus made all of the other maps." There was no correcting comment from anyone.) If any MP-related dev really believes that increasing the flow of feedback, [i]even to the .01th degree[/i], is not worth putting the map creator's name underneath the title, I would like to hear some good logical arguments. I'm sure that there will be, amoung some users, an undercurrent of "Oh, he's so arogant, putting his name on that thing that he thinks he created," and that really does sadden me. The truth is, over the last 2-plus years, I've probably spent at least 200-300 work hours [i]on "Charge" alone[/i], and close to that on many of the other designs. What Charge once was has been completely wiped away, and if anyone would like to debate this with me, I am, as I said above, eager and willing to argue the point. It strikes me as depressingly simple-minded for someone to suggest that I've done mere "edits" to new maps that retain the names of completely different, unbalanced, ancient maps. [quote="Mysterious Man in the Shadows"] In at least two maps, Charge and Blitz, the original designer (pg) is not credited.[/quote] PG is [i]the original namer[/i]. I hesitate to say this, but I do believe that anyone with a halfway decent understanding of competitive multiplayer would know that the maps that were created by PG [i]are most certainly not [b]these maps[/b][/i]. As Dave has said, the old PG maps probably should have been deleted right away, [i]but they weren't, and the new maps that they have become are wonderful.[/i] [quote="Mysterious Man in the Shadows"]Stating a map was "Designed by" the one editing it in a case like this is, arguably, quite arrogant. [/quote] Statements like these are built on a house of cards. "Paterson only [i]edited[/i] this map," stacks nicely with "He isn't the [i]real[/i] designer of this map," and combines into a wonderful "It's arrogant," statement. Here's hoping that you have the courage to reply to me on the forums where I will be posting this. I've made a lot of points here, and I'd appreciate it if you'd respond to all of them. _______________________________________________________ Reply to this item at: <http://gna.org/bugs/?9913> _______________________________________________ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ _______________________________________________ Wesnoth-bugs mailing list [email protected] https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/wesnoth-bugs
