On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 10:59 PM, Bobby Mozumder <mozum...@futureclaw.com> wrote:
>> On Mar 31, 2015, at 12:43 PM, Joshua Cranmer <pidgeo...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> On 3/30/2015 10:02 PM, Bobby Mozumder wrote:
>>> One thing I’m interested in is to see more technical discussions  > around 
>>> this idea.  Like, very specific issues that show a design or
>> > concept flaw.  It’s only been about 10 days since I proposed this and > I 
>> > haven’t received much in that area.  (I did change one thing to > split 
>> > MREF from HREF based on feedback about people wanting backwards > 
>> > compatibility.)
>> Technical discussion is the last step of the process. The reason why people 
>> haven't provided technical feedback is because you have failed to motivate 
>> your proposal.

> I gave a limited one-page idea for now, so design faults should be obvious.  
> This will take years, but right now it’s looking like there aren’t 
> fundamental problems with the proposal.  Most of the unnecessary arguments 
> against it boil down to people just stuck in their comfort-zone, and those 
> people aren’t the target audience for this proposal anyways.  Javascript 
> people are going to be happy with their existing selection of MVC frameworks, 
> so why would they want anything new like this?
> The mistake Javascript developers are making is that they make the assumption 
> that everybody else is a Javascript developer.

That is just a fundamentally false portrayal and while I read between
the lines and understand your intent,  you're misunderstanding the
goals and pressures of an explainable platform that gets partially
figured out via experimental implementations.  Literally all of the
major players here are working on how to build increasingly high level
abstractions and working to compete or collaborate where appropriate.

Many of simple cases that I see that you could potentially do with
your approach as described, at least my understanding of what I've
seen so far, can in fact be done today with several frameworks
declaratively.. There is competition in the space of how to express it
and that is fundamentally no different than if we discussed it on a
mailing list, there would be different ideas.  The difference is that
one involves speculation, no testing and is useless to people in the
meantime (and the meantime means years) - very frequently only at the
end of that do you find out that 'whoops, that isn't actually what
developers need for 70% of real cases' and that scenario is a
fundamental loss at almost every level.  The issue is that that those
simple cases are, in fact, not the norm, you exceed them very quickly
and the question immediately becomes 'then what?'.  There's a lot of
competition and collaboration figuring out how you create a well
reasoned system that allows users the proper balances of power and
simplicity and ability to adapt.  To answer the same sorts of
questions that they answer every day, your solution will involve
JavaScript too - as well as SQL and some server-side specifications
which will require their own languages and probably frameworks.

I'm honestly not trying to dissuade you here or perpetuate an
argument, I'm just saying that your insistence on drawing this line to
say 'it's so simple' is, surely you can appreciate, a 'big' statement
and it doesn't seem unreasonable for people to ask you to actually
show them.  Believe it or not, participants in standards bodies have
limits to the amount of time and monetary investment they can make
into something and there's a lot to do.  Getting something started
often requires first-movers to show something, even browser makers
usually don't just throw an idea out there, they work out a proof of
concept with the proposal and show people what they are talking about.
It's not unreasonable to think that people ask you to do a little more
leg-work before they commit to ...well... even reading more if you see
what I mean... we've all got limited time.

I'm not trying to discourage you here, not at all.  If you have an
idea, I encourage you to try to develop it - find some people who are
interested, make compromises, flesh it out and come back to the list
with yourself in a better position.  I mean, it's not my list, so you
can do what you want - I just think that that's how you will see the
best results.

Brian Kardell :: @briankardell :: hitchjs.com

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