Fair enough.
Gili
On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 09:18:10 -0800, Jonathan Locke wrote:
>
>regardless, it seems like a good thing to test carefully in contrib
>before moving into core. also, by implementing as an extension first,
>we get to test out and ensure that our hooks for this sort of stuff
>work. if it turns out to be as great as you say, i'm sure we'll all
>discuss the possible core-ness of your contrib plugin in the future.
>
>i think one thing at a time here is best. xstream is definitely not a
>1.0 feature (we have to ship this darn thing and the date keeps sliding
>as people find more problems!). maybe contrib in 1.1. and then if that
>works, it could be considered for core in 1.2. please note the word
>"considered". we'd have to come to consensus. but the best way to get
>that consensus is surely implementing an xstream plugin in contrib that
>knocks our socks off.
>
>Gili wrote:
>
>> <sigh> I give up :)
>>
>> XStream is not "walking on the wild side". JSX, its predecessor
>>has been around for *many* years and is a proven technology. XStream
>>does the same thing, only it's free (the former was commercial). Both
>>of these products simply hook into underlying JDK mechanisms to get at
>>private fields, methods, etc. There is no native code or any magic at
>>play here. Performance is very good.
>>
>> So fine, if all you want is a non-default contrib module then
>>maybe we can start with that but honestly the kinds of arguments I'm
>>hearing here from Chris:
>>
>>1) It's not good to add another JAR because it'll increase the size of
>>Wicket
>>2) Serialization requires "a certain discipline" which would be lost if
>>we allowed XStream
>>
>> go smack in the face of Wicket's goals of focusing on ease of
>>use before performance. No "discipline" is lost whether you use
>>standard serialization or XStream. The same persistance rules apply
>>(transient keyword, etc) whether you use one or the other. All we're
>>doing is making it *easier* to serialize and if users want to come back
>>and fine-tune the process further they can still do so. I think you
>>guys are assuming (incorrectly) that XStream is "unstable magic" and
>>that its performance is bad. Neither is true.
>>
>> I have compared XStream vs Serialization to Java vs C before. I
>>honestly think it's that sort of thing.
>>
>> And Eelco, I'll work on the plugin as soon as I get around to
>>working with Wicket again. Right now I'm knee-deep migrating to
>>Hibernate3.
>>
>>Gili
>>
>>On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 09:00:04 -0800, Jonathan Locke wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>yeah. i'm +1 on that too. i'd also like versioning to be hookable
>>>enough that you could replace cloning code with a contrib'ed version mgr
>>>that uses xstream. best of all worlds this way. wicket would default
>>>to the normal Serialization model, but then you could replace that using
>>>contrib'ed xstream code if you felt like taking a walk on the wild side...
>>>
>>>Christopher Turner wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>My personal view is that we should not be including this as a standard
>>>>feature of the core. It just adds extra jar dependencies, increases
>>>>the size of the web application and so on. I'm personally more than
>>>>happy with using the standard serialization mechanism provided by my
>>>>application server vendor.
>>>>
>>>>Serialzation is a messy thing to deal with and I think that a certain
>>>>discipline and design ethic is forced on you by having to implement
>>>>Serializable and deal with the differences between transient and
>>>>persistent fields. If you want to design efficient web applications
>>>>then you have to be aware of the issues involved in this. Wicket can
>>>>hide it for simpler applications but as soon as you start growing to
>>>>servers supporting session clustering and recovery then you have to
>>>>understand a bit more about what is going on and make some important
>>>>design decisions.
>>>>
>>>>However, I would be +1 for providing XStreamPageState and other
>>>>Xstream support as an optional implementation in the contrib package.
>>>>
>>>>Regards,
>>>>Chris
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>if xstream doesn't have downsides and is more efficient and we don't
>>>>>care about vm requirements, we could use xstream for undo cloning
>>>>>operations. then if we provided XStreamPageState, you
>>>>>wouldn't have to
>>>>>make anything serializable. (uh... i think). xml seems like
>>>>>a terribly
>>>>>verbose format though. i'm concerned about memory impact...
>>>>>
>>>>>Gili wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:32:18 -0800, Jonathan Locke wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>if gili wants to go test our new PageState mechanism by
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>making a nice
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>subclass of PageState using xstream (XStreamPageState?),
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>that might make
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>a really nice contrib or extensions class...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Before I do I want to make sure I have a better
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>understanding of how
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>far I can go to serialize as little as possible with the web
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>container
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>and handling the rest with XStream. My main concern is for
>>>>>>user-classes: users should not have to worry about serialization or
>>>>>>no-arg constructors and I simply want to give them the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>option of doing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>so. So it would be nice if say we'd still have to persist
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>Wicket using
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>the web container but everything else could be handled "in-house" by
>>>>>>Wicket using XStream.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Gili
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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