Che, One thing I have learned is that you learn much more from your errors than from your successes. The reason is that when you make an error, you have to figure why it didn't work and how to fix it. When you have success, you already know the reason: it's just because you are very good at what you are doing (which is often an error from which you can learn... much later and at a much higher cost:-(
I think showing what not to do is at least as important (and somtimes more important) as showing the right way. It's even more important when the wrong way is the more evident one. As an author, one has to show why the user should not take this route, rather than just forgetting about it and let the user discover it later at higher cost. Even very basic features are concerned. I am sure no one here ever use the default package. However, I think it is good in an introductory Java book to put the first HelloWorld class in the default package. It is then much more evident to explain why one should not do this. Pierre-Yves Che Schneider a écrit : > Okay, understood. And you are right, there hopefullt (and luckily, > looking back at my code from former days :) always is a progress and you > learn (baby-)step by (baby-)step. > > However, I think that I chose to read a book in order to skip a few of > these steps. Basically, I am trying to learn from other peoples mistakes > and take advantage of their (superios) knowledge of a subject. > So would it not be better instead of letting me go (although guided) > through the same steps I would go through by myself just introducing me > to the right way of doing it? > Please don't get me wrong: I still think the approach to have an > application evolve while you read the book is absolutely fine! > However, I would have wished for examples that actually are being > written and then used (with only minor modifications) till the end. > > About your example: > Of course you are right. You cannot overload a newbie programmer's > brainwith all the features of a language from the start. But you could > show him ONE anonymous class. Then another in some other place. When he > get's the hang of what it is and how and where to use it, you can use > the classes he already wrote and introduce some more going "You have > already seen how anonymous classes work - now here is another brilliant > place where you can use it. If you don't get it, go back to chapter X > and reread the part about anonymous classes." > Thus you still have code that is the way it should be AND you get the > newbie to understand how to program properly and use concepts where > appropriate. > > On the other hand, showing the newbie how to write the (possibly > complex) program without anonymous classes and then have him refactor > the whole thing later to use anonymous classes he will not understand > when to use and when not to use anonymous classes and he would have to > go through the whole code again trying to understand it again. > > But again, that is just my opinion. And I am difficult... :) > > // Che > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf >> Of Igor Vaynberg >> Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 9:24 AM >> To: wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net >> Subject: Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great >> first book onwicket >> >> the point i was trying to make is that the progression itself >> can be an important part of the learning - its the journey >> not the destination stuff. >> >> compare the code you write now to the code you wrote two >> years ago. i bet the one you write now is a lot more >> efficient and much cleaner. now imagine yourself two years >> ago looking at the code you write today. i bet you wouldnt >> just go "oh damn thats the way i should do it from now on" >> and instead go "umm...what the hell is this and how does it work" >> >> a more concrete example. show a newbie java programmer code >> full of anonymous classes. chances are they are not going to >> understand it even though it can be the best approach to the problem. >> >> the point that you make about it being unexpected is also >> valid. it mightve been better if karthik gave you a heads up >> that there are better ways of doing this later on. >> >> -Igor >> >> >> >> On 9/15/06, Che Schneider <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> Hey Igor, >> >> Although I disagree about the 'real life' (that's what >> you have the >> design for: to avoid the constant architecture change), >> you are right >> that in a book it is a valid approach. >> However, I very much dislike it unless you clearly state in the >> beginning that you are gonna do it in a messy way just to show >> something. Otherwise people (me) spend time reading, >> understanding and >> learning what was said just to learn that 'Actually, >> there is a much >> better way of doing this.'. And that is what it comes >> down to in the >> book sometimes: not 'different' ways but actually 'better' ways! >> If you want to show a certain feature of the API, show >> it in an example >> that is an actual case where you would use it. Don't >> just write code to >> show the feature and then re-do it. I will never learn >> when to actually >> use the feature in real life then! >> >> But hey - apparently that's just me... :) >> >> // Che >> >> >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] On Behalf >> > Of Igor Vaynberg >> > Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 6:42 PM >> > To: wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net >> > Subject: Re: [Wicket-user] SUSPECT: RE: Pro Wicket: Great >> > first book onwicket >> > >> > And as I stated in my last email, I personally do not >> > like the way of saying 'Let's do it like this!' and >> > then a chapter later >> > you revoke it all because it can be done >> quicker and cleaner >> > differently. >> > >> > >> > for an introductory book i do not think this is all that bad >> > actually. you are learning the api. you figure out how to do >> > things using the simple api, and the deeper you delve, >> > discovering more advanced features, you can simplify the code >> > you have written before. isnt this what happens in real life >> > as well? at least with this approach you see the progression >> > instead of heaving the book go very very deep into some api >> > to explain how to do something simple efficiently and lose >> > you in the middle of it. >> > >> > -Igor >> > >> > ______________________________ >> > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail message is intended for the >> > addressee(s) or authorized recipient only. If you are not the >> > addressee, or an authorized recipient, you are specifically >> > advised that any use, distribution, publication, copying or >> > repetition of this information is prohibited. If you have >> > received this information in error, please notify us >> > immediately (+31 (0)20 50 25 800) and destroy this message. >> > >> ______________________________ >> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail message is intended for the >> addressee(s) or authorized recipient only. If you are not the >> addressee, or an authorized recipient, you are specifically >> advised that any use, distribution, publication, copying or >> repetition of this information is prohibited. If you have >> received this information in error, please notify us >> immediately (+31 (0)20 50 25 800) and destroy this message. >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----------- >> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web >> services, security? >> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology >> to make your job easier >> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based >> on Apache Geronimo >> >> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&; >> dat=121642 >> _______________________________________________ >> Wicket-user mailing list >> Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user >> <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user> >> >> >> >> ______________________________ >> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail message is intended for the >> addressee(s) or authorized recipient only. If you are not the >> addressee, or an authorized recipient, you are specifically >> advised that any use, distribution, publication, copying or >> repetition of this information is prohibited. If you have >> received this information in error, please notify us >> immediately (+31 (0)20 50 25 800) and destroy this message. >> > ______________________________ > DISCLAIMER: This e-mail message is intended for the addressee(s) or > authorized recipient only. If you are not the addressee, or an authorized > recipient, you are specifically advised that any use, distribution, > publication, copying or repetition of this information is prohibited. If you > have received this information in error, please notify us immediately (+31 > (0)20 50 25 800) and destroy this message. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > _______________________________________________ > Wicket-user mailing list > Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 _______________________________________________ Wicket-user mailing list Wicket-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wicket-user
