people's gender. does knowing someone's gender increase bias? My guess based on the real life experiments is yes.
On Sat, Mar 7, 2015 at 1:23 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > when what is known? gender discrimination? > > ---------- Original Message ----------- > From:Sam Katz <[email protected]> > To:Research into Wikimedia content and communities > <[email protected]> > Sent:Sat, 7 Mar 2015 10:28:55 -0600 > Subject:Re: [Wiki-research-l] a cautious note on gender > stats Re: Fwd: [Gendergap] Wikipedia readers > >> does a wiki have single authorship (like the >> original britannica) or multiple authorship? does >> it value anonymity? is gender discrimination more >> likely when it is known? >> >> On Sat, Mar 7, 2015 at 1:32 AM, >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> I would prefer we not track gender at all. >> > >> > why not for a wiki like Wikipedia? >> > >> > and, in your opinion, what exactly makes this wiki "a > ton harder" to deal >> > with? >> > >> > thanks, >> > Claudia >> > >> > ---------- Original Message ----------- >> > From:Sam Katz <[email protected]> >> > To:Research into Wikimedia content and communities > <wiki-research- >> > [email protected]> >> > Sent:Fri, 6 Mar 2015 17:29:22 -0600 >> > Subject:Re: [Wiki-research-l] a cautious note on gender > stats Re: Fwd: >> > [Gendergap] Wikipedia readers >> > >> >> It seems to me you are extrapolating from >> >> insufficient data. identity and presentation are >> >> not the same thing, but I guess the question in >> >> this context is "what is presentation in an online >> >> setting?" "how is gender shown in an online setting?" >> >> >> >> That's pretty easy in one sense, but then you have >> >> "in a wiki like wikipedia" and it's a ton harder. >> >> >> >> I would prefer we not track gender at all. >> >> >> >> --Sam >> >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 5:16 PM, >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > yes, I agree the point you raise is interesting >> >> > >> >> > in attacks, however, the perceived gender is probably > more >> >> > important than how the attacked user might identify > (or not) >> >> > >> >> > and again, this might be one of the reasons why people >> >> > identifying as female* tend to refrain from joining > surveys >> >> > and simply prefer not to be forced to say "who" they > "are" - >> >> > just like many others who do not identify as (e.g., >> >> > heterosexual) males feel that online spaces get less > safe if >> >> > they say anything about their gender/s or sexual >> >> > identity/identities... how come? >> >> > >> >> > sometimes I think: if only more contemporaries in > hegemonic >> >> > positions would be willing to switch perspectives for a >> >> > minute or two, nonsensical statements like "less than > 20%" - >> >> > posited as outcomes of "research" - could be done > away with, >> >> > I guess >> >> > >> >> > as for another attempt at switching one's > perspective, who >> >> > are those 80%? trans*, inter*, and male people? or fluid >> >> > identities, maybe? >> >> > >> >> > best, Claudia >> >> > >> >> > ---------- Original Message ----------- >> >> > From:Sam Katz <[email protected]> >> >> > To:[email protected], Research into Wikimedia > content >> >> > and communities <[email protected]> >> >> > Sent:Fri, 6 Mar 2015 16:57:58 -0600 >> >> > Subject:Re: [Wiki-research-l] a cautious note on gender >> >> > stats Re: Fwd: [Gendergap] Wikipedia readers >> >> > >> >> >> To those following: >> >> >> I think this is a valid question I am raising. The >> >> >> question of whether written communication has a >> >> >> different way of relating than oral, in the >> >> >> context of a wiki, which by definition is >> >> >> collaborative, tracks users but allows anonymous >> >> >> editing, is a valid question. >> >> >> >> >> >> Anonymity and pen names were first used often >> >> >> times by women. >> >> >> >> >> >> I will also note that in terms of interface biases, >> >> >> Facebook and other platforms (Acquia Commons) >> >> >> that use photos of their users as adornments, to >> >> >> show what users have posted do worse than >> >> >> wikipedia in terms of encouraging safety and >> >> >> courage ("be bold in editing") among their users. >> >> >> >> >> >> Clarifying what the question is in this thread is >> >> >> a good first step towards answering it. If I was >> >> >> confused, I stand corrected, but I believe this is >> >> >> an important discussion to have. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Kerry Raymond >> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> > Do you say that as a man or as a woman? >> >> >> > >> >> >> > As a woman, you are assumed to be male routinely > in real >> >> > life and online. >> >> >> > Many people make no effort whatsoever, letters > addressed >> >> > to "Dr Sir" etc. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Has it got better over the years? Yes, in my real > life, >> >> > it has got somewhat >> >> >> > better over the years. But getting involved in > Wikipedia >> >> > and its discussions >> >> >> > about gender is like being back in 1970s. "Do we > really >> >> > have a gender gap?" >> >> >> > "Does it matter if we have a gender gap?" >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Kerry >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> >> > From: [email protected] >> >> >> > > [mailto:[email protected]] On >> >> > Behalf Of Sam Katz >> >> >> > Sent: Saturday, 7 March 2015 2:54 AM >> >> >> > To: Research into Wikimedia content and communities >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [Wiki-research-l] a cautious note on > gender >> >> > stats Re: Fwd: >> >> >> > [Gendergap] Wikipedia readers >> >> >> > >> >> >> > hey, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I just want to note that I am not convinced that > gender >> >> > expression >> >> >> > online or indeed expression in general is the same > as it >> >> > is in real >> >> >> > space. Granted, this may be stylistically what you are >> >> > trying to >> >> >> > prove. But I just wanted to add my two cents, that >> >> > indeed it may not >> >> >> > have a gender bias directly if the structure does not >> >> > impose it. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 9:08 AM, <[email protected]> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi Frances, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> your assumption (an "unknown" user in a language > where >> >> >> >> personal nouns are gendered will always display the >> >> >> >> masculine form) is correct for deWP, I just tested it >> >> > from a >> >> >> >> new dummy account. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> you might call it a truly sytemic bias, and > especially so >> >> >> >> because community majority has not seen to > changing that >> >> >> >> space into gender friendly space for all, it seems. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> so this adds another item of disharmony to my > cautious note >> >> >> >> on gender stats >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> best, >> >> >> >> Claudia >> >> >> >> ---------- Original Message ----------- >> >> >> >> From:Frances Hocutt <[email protected]> >> >> >> >> To:Research into Wikimedia content and communities >> >> >> >> <[email protected]> >> >> >> >> Sent:Thu, 5 Mar 2015 16:43:04 -0800 >> >> >> >> Subject:Re: [Wiki-research-l] a cautious note on > gender >> >> >> >> stats Re: Fwd: [Gendergap] Wikipedia readers >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 4:30 PM, Mark J. Nelson >> >> >> >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> > Frances Hocutt <[email protected]> writes: >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> > > One change that could address the latter > incentive is >> >> >> >> to change the >> >> >> >>> > > defaults on MediaWiki so that masculine > grammatical >> >> >> >> gender is not the >> >> >> >>> > > default for new users. It could be randomly > assigned, >> >> >> >> and then some men >> >> >> >>> > as >> >> >> >>> > > well as some women would have the incentive > to set >> >> >> >> their gender >> >> >> >>> > preferences. >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> > That's how it currently works, according to > the manual, >> >> >> >> with the default >> >> >> >>> > gender set to 'unknown': >> >> >> >>> > >> >> > > http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgDefaultUserOptions >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> > I'm not sure if that's a recent change, or > what's in >> >> >> >> effect on >> >> >> >>> > Wikimedia's own wikis, though. >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> I'm aware that it defaults to "unknown". My >> >> >> >>> understanding--and please correct me if I'm wrong-- >> >> >> >>> is that an "unknown" user in a language where >> >> >> >>> personal nouns are gendered will always display >> >> >> >>> the masculine form (i.e. Usuario for a user of >> >> >> >>> unknown gender on es.wp). So, a male user doesn't >> >> >> >>> need to change his gender in preferences in order >> >> >> >>> to be described accurately where a female user >> >> >> >>> would need to set her gender in order to be >> >> >> >>> described as "Usuaria". Hence, different >> >> >> >>> incentives, and ones that could be addressed with >> >> >> >>> different default behavior for an "unknown" user. >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> -Frances >> >> >> >> ------- End of Original Message ------- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> Wiki-research-l mailing list >> >> >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> >> >> >> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > Wiki-research-l mailing list >> >> >> > [email protected] >> >> >> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> >> > Wiki-research-l mailing list >> >> >> > [email protected] >> >> >> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Wiki-research-l mailing list >> >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki- >> >> >> research-l >> >> > ------- End of Original Message ------- >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > Wiki-research-l mailing list >> >> > [email protected] >> >> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Wiki-research-l mailing list >> >> [email protected] >> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki- >> >> research-l >> > ------- End of Original Message ------- >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Wiki-research-l mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wiki-research-l mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki- >> research-l > ------- End of Original Message ------- > > > _______________________________________________ > Wiki-research-l mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l _______________________________________________ Wiki-research-l mailing list [email protected] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wiki-research-l
