https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18957
Brion Vibber <br...@wikimedia.org> changed:
What |Removed |Added
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CC| |d...@gmx.de
CC| |br...@wikimedia.org
Status|REOPENED |RESOLVED
Resolution| |INVALID
DaSch <dasch...@gmx.net> changed:
What |Removed |Added
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Status|RESOLVED |REOPENED
Resolution|INVALID |
Niklas Laxström <niklas.laxst...@gmail.com> changed:
What |Removed |Added
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Status|REOPENED |RESOLVED
Resolution| |INVALID
Andrew Garrett <agarr...@wikimedia.org> changed:
What |Removed |Added
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CC| |agarr...@wikimedia.org
Nemo_bis <federicol...@tiscali.it> changed:
What |Removed |Added
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CC| |federicol...@tiscali.it
--- Comment #20 from Brion Vibber <br...@wikimedia.org> 2009-06-23 01:32:10
UTC ---
*** Bug 19255 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
--- Comment #21 from Brion Vibber <br...@wikimedia.org> 2009-06-23 01:37:54
UTC ---
Reverting r51209 in r52300.
Apparently there is wild disagreement on what the proper formatting is; since
no one complained in the previous 8 years I'm returning it to the status quo.
Reverted and resolving INVALID based on unclear request.
--- Comment #22 from DaSch <dasch...@gmx.net> 2009-06-23 05:15:21 UTC ---
The rules for german formatting are clear, there are just an bunch of people
that have problem with this in german wikipedia, but because of the fact that
this is not only wikipedia software there should be a solution for this
a problem with the solution made was that positiv and negativ numbers where not
formatted equaly
--- Comment #23 from STBR <dark.j...@gmx.net> 2009-06-23 10:02:40 UTC ---
DaSch, please realize your pushing of ISO or DIN norms has not been discussed
widely and thus lacking of concensus. Please also realize, that these norms are
almost never applied in electronic media because it has a very simple reason:
DIN recommends using a *small* space, not the usual standard space. But lots of
programs have problems displaying the small space character defined in UTF8
correctly. Due to this, in the de-DE cultural settings the dot is used as
delimiter for thousands. Even Microsoft uses the point as delimiter for German
regional settings in their latest OS Windows Vista. So German Wikipedia advised
to use the point as delimiter due to the technical difficulties.
By implementing this format setting, you would all in a sudden create a massive
inconsistency between the formatting applied by this template and the
formatting used in the more than 920,000 articles created so far. Evenmore, you
would not solve the problem but even replace a valid alternative formatting
(dot) with a completely wrong formatting (standard space). I consider this as a
non desired behavior.
As I already recommended in the marked as duplicate bug 19857, it may be a good
idea to make the formatting rule configureable via an option in the config file
or via mediawiki system message.
--- Comment #24 from DaSch <dasch...@gmx.net> 2009-06-23 10:08:34 UTC ---
maybe it's widely used but it's not valid!
--- Comment #25 from Niklas Laxström <niklas.laxst...@gmail.com> 2009-06-23
10:22:32 UTC ---
(In reply to comment #23)
> DaSch, please realize your pushing of ISO or DIN norms has not been discussed
> widely and thus lacking of concensus.
MediaWiki is not developed by concensus.
> Please also realize, that these norms are
> almost never applied in electronic media because it has a very simple reason:
> DIN recommends using a *small* space, not the usual standard space. But lots
> of
> programs have problems displaying the small space character defined in UTF8
> correctly. Due to this, in the de-DE cultural settings the dot is used as
> delimiter for thousands. Even Microsoft uses the point as delimiter for German
> regional settings in their latest OS Windows Vista. So German Wikipedia
> advised
> to use the point as delimiter due to the technical difficulties.
If Microsoft and CLDR use a dot, there is no reason for us to use something
else. Germans have accepted it as status quo, like almost everybody else has
done for "-quotes instead of the typographically correct ones.
> By implementing this format setting, you would all in a sudden create a
> massive
> inconsistency between the formatting applied by this template and the
> formatting used in the more than 920,000 articles created so far. Evenmore,
> you
> would not solve the problem but even replace a valid alternative formatting
> (dot) with a completely wrong formatting (standard space). I consider this as
> a
> non desired behavior.
It's not a template. It is a parser function for simple formatting of numbers
in the user interface.
> As I already recommended in the marked as duplicate bug 19857, it may be a
> good
> idea to make the formatting rule configurable via an option in the config file
> or via mediawiki system message.
Not a system message at least. Let's see if the new localisation cache makes it
easier to override.
As we cannot change number formatting for de without dewiki complaining, and
the current version has been and is acceptable (for who it is not?), there is
nothing to do in this bug.
--- Comment #26 from STBR <dark.j...@gmx.net> 2009-06-24 19:52:03 UTC ---
What do you guys don't understand? A standard size space as used now is
*NOT*!!! a valid formatting at all! You changed a valid alternate formatting
(the dot) into a completely wrong! How do you justify a formatting not defined
in the DIN cited by DaSch?
And Niklas again is praising his non consensus phrase - but obviously doesn't
get the point at all. Read what I've written, think about what's wrong now and
then find a solution. Letting the format as it is now is NOT a solution -
evenmore you now created a bug with this format. Maybe it's true MediaWiki is
not developed by concensus, but hey: I don't care in which way you implement
stuff, let it be a parser function, a hook or whatever you like, but if you are
not able to make such an elementary thing like number formatting customizable,
there is something running horrible wrong! Evenmore when you don't realize for
yourself that you can't change the formatting for a single project - ever
thought what customization options are for?
--- Comment #27 from Niklas Laxström <niklas.laxst...@gmail.com> 2009-06-24
20:00:03 UTC ---
(In reply to comment #26)
Please read the whole story before commenting and try to be polite. The change
was reverted and nothing will change. You are creating useless friction and
making me unhappy.
--- Comment #28 from Nemo_bis <federicol...@tiscali.it> 2009-09-01 21:02:40
UTC ---
(In reply to comment #7)
> The idea of handling
> four-digit numbers specially is just a private mannerism of some Wikipedians.
Well, this particular claim is blatantly false: the BIPM states that «however,
when there are only four digits before or after the decimal marker, it is
customary not to use a space to isolate a single digit»
(http://www.bipm.org/en/si/si_brochure/chapter5/5-3-2.html#5-3-3).
But «For numbers in a table, the format used should not vary within one
column», but
(In reply to comment #15)
> formatnum can't know the context.
so we should always use the space (previously this wasn't the case, see bug
3408#c2).
(In reply to comment #15)
> To sum up, there are following errors that should be fixed:
>
> * {{formatnum:1234}} → 1234 instead of 1 234 (international and ISO 31-0
> compatible notation! Furthermore this is a must for tables, where 4-digit and
> 4+-digit numbers are listed below. However the error does not occur with
> negative numbers and numbers with a decimal separator.)
I've tested it on fr.wiki and now it's correct (see also bug 13435 for
fi.wiki).
> * {{formatnum:-1234}} → -1 234 instead of −1 234 (minus sing!
> U+2212)
This isn't: see bug 8327.
> * {{formatnum:1234.56789}} → 1 234,56789 instead of
> 1 234,567 89 (also negative numbers should get a thousands
> separator,
> see ISO 31-0)
This isn't neither: see bug 10454.
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