"Yes, there is and should be more than one "ontology", and that is already the case with categories, which are so flexible they can loop around and become their own grandfather."
Can someone give an example of where it would be useful to have a cycle in an ontology? To my knowledge cycles are considered a problem in categorization, and would be a problem in a large-scaled ontology-based classification system as well. My impression has been that Wikidata's ontology would be a directed acyclic graph (DAG) with a single root at entity <http://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q35120> (thing). On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 3:03 AM, Mathieu Stumpf < [email protected]> wrote: > Le 2013-05-06 18:13, Jane Darnell a écrit : > > Yes, there is and should be more than one "ontology", and that is >> already the case with categories, which are so flexible they can loop >> around and become their own grandfather. >> > > To my mind, categories indeed feet better how we think. I'm not sure > "grandfather" is a canonical term in such a graph, I think it's simply a > cycle[1]. > > [1] > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Cycle_%28graph_theory%29<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_%28graph_theory%29> > > > Dbpedia complaints should be discussed on that list, I am not a >> dbpedia user, though I think it's a useful project to have around. >> > > Sorry I didn't want to make off topic messages, nor sound complaining. I > just wanted to give my feedback, hopefuly a constructive one, on a message > posted on this list. I transfered my message to dbpedia mailing list. > > > >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On May 6, 2013, at 12:00 PM, Jona Christopher Sahnwaldt <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Hi Mathieu, >>> >>> I think the DBpedia mailing list is a better place for discussing the >>> DBpedia ontology: >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/**lists/listinfo/dbpedia-**discussion<https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion> >>> Drop us a message if you have questions or concerns. I'm sure someone >>> will answer your questions. I am not an ontology expert, so I'll just >>> leave it at that. >>> >>> JC >>> >>> On 6 May 2013 11:01, Mathieu Stumpf <[email protected]**> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Le 2013-05-06 00:09, Jona Christopher Sahnwaldt a écrit : >>>> >>>> On 5 May 2013 20:48, Mathieu Stumpf <[email protected]**> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Le dimanche 05 mai 2013 à 16:28 +0200, Jona Christopher Sahnwaldt a >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The ontology is maintained by a community that everyone can join at >>>>>>> http://mappings.dbpedia.org/ . An overview of the current class >>>>>>> hierarchy is here: >>>>>>> http://mappings.dbpedia.org/**server/ontology/classes/<http://mappings.dbpedia.org/server/ontology/classes/>. >>>>>>> You're more >>>>>>> than welcome to help! I think talk pages are not used enough on the >>>>>>> mappings wiki, so if you have ideas, misgivings or questions about >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> DBpedia ontology, the place to go is probably the mailing list: >>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/**lists/listinfo/dbpedia-**discussion<https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you maintain several "ontologies" in parallel? Otherwise, how do >>>>>> you >>>>>> plane to avoid a "cultural bias", and how do you think it may impact >>>>>> the >>>>>> other projects? I mean, if you try to establish "one semantic >>>>>> hierarchy >>>>>> to rule them all", couldn't it arise cultural diversity concerns? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We maintain only one version of the ontology. We have a pretty diverse >>>>> community, so I hope the editors will take care of that. So far, the >>>>> ontology does have a Western bias though, more or less like the >>>>> English Wikipedia or the current list of Wikidata properties. >>>>> >>>>> JC >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I can't see how your community could take care of it when they have no >>>> choice but not contribute at all or contribute to one ontology whose >>>> structure already defined main axes. To my mind, it's a structural >>>> bias, you >>>> can't go out of it without going out of the structure. As far as I >>>> understand, the current "ontology"[1] you are using is a tree with a >>>> central >>>> root, and not a DAG or any other graph. In my humble opinion, if you >>>> need a >>>> central element/leaf, it should be precisely "ontology"/representation, >>>> under which one may build several world representation networks, and >>>> even >>>> more relations between this networks which would represent how one may >>>> links >>>> concepts of different cultures. >>>> >>>> To my mind the problem is much more important than with a local >>>> Wikipedia >>>> (or other Wikimedia projects). Because each project can expose subjects >>>> through the collective representation of this local community. But with >>>> wikidata central role, isn't there a risk of "short-circuit" this local >>>> expressions? >>>> >>>> Also, what is your metric to measure a community diversity? I don't >>>> want to >>>> be pessimist, nor to look like I blame the current wikidata community, >>>> but >>>> it doesn't seems evident to me that it currently represent human >>>> diversity. >>>> I think that there are probably a lot of economical/social/educational/ >>>> **etc >>>> barriers that may seems like nothing to anyone already involved in the >>>> wikidata community, but which are gigantic for those >>>> non-part-of-the-community people. >>>> >>>> Now to give my own opinion of the representation/ontology you are >>>> building, >>>> I would say that it's based on exactly the opposite premisses I would >>>> use. >>>> Wikidata Q1 is universe, then you have earth, life, death and human, >>>> and it >>>> seems to me that the ontology you are building have the same >>>> anthropocentrist bias of the universe. To my mind, should I peak a >>>> central >>>> concept to begin with, I would not take universe, but perception, >>>> because >>>> perceptions are what is given to you before you even have a concept for >>>> it. >>>> Even within solipsism you can't deny perceptions (at least as long as >>>> the >>>> solipcist pretend to exist, but if she doesn't, who care about the >>>> opinion >>>> of a non-existing person :P). Well I wouldn't want to flood this list >>>> with >>>> epistemological concerns, but it just to say that even for a someone >>>> like me >>>> that you may probably categorise as western-minded, this "ontology" >>>> looks >>>> like the opposite of my personal opinion on the matter. I don't say >>>> that I >>>> am right and the rest of the community is wrong. I say that I doubt >>>> that you >>>> can build an ontology which would fit every cultural represantions into >>>> a >>>> tree of concepts. But maybe it's not your goal in the first place, so >>>> you >>>> may explain me what is your goal then. >>>> >>>> [1] I use quotes because it's seems to me that what most IT people call >>>> an >>>> ontology, is what I would call a representation. >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l> >>>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> Wikidata-l mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l> >>> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Wikidata-l mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l> >> > > -- > Association Culture-Libre > http://www.culture-libre.org/ > > > ______________________________**_________________ > Wikidata-l mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l<https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l> >
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