I agree that it's worthwhile to take a step back and consider the bigger
picture, but wouldn't a more appropriate discussion for a Wikidata list be
-- is there a critical need to represent mathematical notations in Wikidata
and, if so, what form should that take?

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 7:25 PM, Paul Topping <[email protected]> wrote:

> Rather than discussing whether MathML is a failed standard, web or
> otherwise, I recommend we discuss specific, constructive topics. I suggest
> the discussion be in the context of MathML where appropriate, not because I
> want to defend MathML but because it is an existing standard. It is a place
> to start. If the solutions we reach replace MathML all or in part, so be
> it. Let's not start by throwing it out but by addressing its problems. We
> can certainly create a new standard if MathML can't be fixed. Finally, if
> this is the wrong venue for this topic or any other, please suggest a
> better one. If there are other parties that need to know about the
> discussion, please let them know.
>
> Assuming others agree, let’s start with perhaps an important issue. Should
> Presentation MathML dictate a specific rendering or leave formatting
> choices up to the renderer. Peter says, "I have the impression people
> generally expect consistent rendering across browsers. But anecdotal
> evidence is, well, anecdotal." I would agree with this statement. People do
> expect this. I believe they get that expectation from TeX but it does make
> sense. Why would a user want a different rendering in a different browser?
>
> The reason I said "no" to this before was because the MathML spec leaves a
> lot of rendering decisions up to the implementation. Someone reading the
> MathML spec should NOT expect all renderings to be the same. In fact, the
> spec doesn't specify the rendering at the required level of detail. Doing
> so would be difficult. TeX doesn't specify its rendering in detail either
> except via the code itself. In other words, the only proper rendering of
> TeX is that done by TeX itself.
>
> We could create a MathML 4 in which the graphical rendering is specified
> in writing and in detail. Implementations would be constrained much more
> than by the current spec. Another way to achieve this goal is to create a
> reference implementation. This would be the TeX way, or close to it.
>
> We could even map MathML onto TeX somehow and then defer to TeX's
> rendering. The MathML spec would be annotated by TeX templates (perhaps
> macros) that serve to define the rendering. The reference implementation
> would consist of a MathML-to-TeX convertor and the TeX engine itself.
> Implementations that intend to abide by the MathML 4 spec could use the
> reference implementation or roll their own.
>
> When I say rendering above, I only mean graphical rendering. When we talk
> about audio or braille rendering, things are much less clear. The state of
> the art in MathML-to-speech has certainly not reached a point where
> everyone can agree. Besides, there is personal taste of the reader and
> multiple languages to consider.
>
> Ok, I'll stop there and take a breath.
>
> Paul
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