Thanks Finn Årup Nielsen, I will answer your follow-up questions in the order 
they appeared.

Yes, I'm thinking, with the example of Andrea, it may be best to rid Wikidata 
of the classes "male given name", "female given name", and "unisex given name", 
and change all name items representing the name Andrea to just one "given 
name", leaving sex and gender to the P21 statements about the individuals named 
Andrea. There might be good reason for not doing it this way, but as things 
stand now, I can't seem to figure out any consistent way in which these 
gender-specific subclasses of "given name" can be applied.

What I meant by separating given names from other attributes of persons was to 
eliminate classes such as "American given name", instead defining them as 
"given name" and using other statements such as "culture", "language of work or 
name", or "country of origin" to make additional assertions about the names. 
Most given names are already separated from ethnic groups, but some are not. 
I'm not sure whether the decisions to include classes for given names 
associated with certain national or ethnic groups was a conscious decision made 
by the community, or something that just kind of happened organically in some 
cases and is now in a state of inconsistent application.

And, yes, I was wondering about selectively disabling the ability to add, for 
instance, P21 to a specific Q number. This would protect against statements 
being made about a specific item if there's a reason not to include them, and 
if possible in Wikibase, could be useful for any number of properties for 
living persons that may violate privacy or put people at risk.

As for the conversations on the property talk for P21, they are a bit dizzying 
and seem to have stalled. Is there a better way to get the discussion started 
than the questions I posted back in October of last year? I started a 
conversation on Project Chat just before sending the email to this list, and 
the responses showed, in my opinion, that the subject merits further 
discussion. 

Best,

Crystal
-----Original Message-----
From: Finn Aarup Nielsen via Wikidata <[email protected]> 
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2021 6:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: [Wikidata] Re: Given Names and Sex/Gender for Humans in Wikidata


> 
> _What do members of this list think of:_
> 
> -Separating the concepts of sex/gender and given name in Wikidata?

For the name Andrea we have the female Andrea, the male Andrea and the unisex 
Andrea. Potentially, we would have a new item that is just a "given name 
Andrea" and link all Andrea humans to that item.
        
I note that the female patronymic Icelandic surname Finnbogadóttir indicates no 
gender, but that the surname itself indicates female (dóttir = daughter).


> -Separating given names from other attributes of persons, such as 
> nationality or ethnic group?

I am unsure what is meant here. Aren't the given names already separated from 
nationality and ethnic group. To a certain degree, one might want to label a 
name according to the etymology, - I suppose.

Do we have a specific example of an item that is an instance of female/male 
given name were this is an issue.


> -Removing property constraints that require sex or gender to be 
> identified in items for persons?

I think we should do that.


> -Adding the living person protection class of "property that may violate 
> privacy" to "sex or gender" (P21)?

I think we should do that.


> -Adding a property constraint of "citation needed constraint" with a 
> constraint status of either mandatory constraint or suggested constraint?

I think we should put that in.


> 
> -Adding protections against the creation of specific property statements 
> being added to specific items for living persons?

Do you mean to disable the ability to add, e.g., P21 to a specific 
Q-item? I wonder if that is possible with the current Wikibase 
installation. Setting the value "unknown" could be a possible solution 
in some cases.


I am unsure where it is best to discuss these issues. The property 
constraint can be discussed on the property talk page.
On https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property_talk:P21 there are some 
gender discussions.

For the more general discussion, it may also be appropriate to have at 
least a mention on https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat


best regards
Finn Årup Nielsen
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