I am possibly in the minority but while I think our commitment to Open Source is important, I think our commitment to ease of use for on-the-ground educators is more important. I need to be able to use something simpler now...and Google products are certainly simpler...However, I hear the need to collaborate with other free services...is there a way we could do both use Google (which after all is up and running smoothly many places) with the idea of working with these other folks and adopt their search mechanism when it is perfected. I am sorry, but as an end user in an institution that is constantly changing software, I need to have wikieducator be easy and quick or I won't be able to make good use of it. Sorry for being so grumpy. Joyce
Wayne Mackintosh <[email protected]>
Sent by: [email protected]
03/05/2010 07:38 AM ZE12Please respond [email protected]
To [email protected]
cc
bcc Joyce McKnight/SUNY
Subject Re: [WikiEducator] Improving our our search capability -- WE need your advice
Hi Josh,
Nope -- we've not yet considered other third-party search solutions. Still early days in the discussions. Keeping in line with the traditions of releasing both early and frequently --- we also keep our ideas open and prefer to chat openly about potential solutions before taking a decision :-).
To be honest, I had not thought about the SphinxSearch extension and I think you make an excellent proposal -- that is to first try Sphinx search technology. Clearly we would prefer an open source solution for the reasons you outline. Moreover this would give us more flexibility to consider unique or educationally specific search customisations that may be needed down the track.
The discussion list is a legacy decision. We used to run a phpBB forum and the old list was spammed to death. Back in those days we didn't have the human capacity to manage the spam problem properly :-(. In Jan 2007, when WE had 285 registered accounts a community member set up the Google group forum.
Wow -- today we have 12,800 accounts. We've come long way.
Josh thanks for the advice -- My sense is that we should trial the SpinxSearch extension.
Any other thoughts or suggestions?
Cheers
Wayne
On 5 March 2010 05:03, Joshua Gay <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Wayne,
Right now the choices being discussed seem to be either MediaWiki built in search or Google Search, right? I'm not sure if you've considered any other third-party search solutions, but, one promising (FOSS) candidate is the Sphinx Search Engine via the SphinxSearch MediaWiki Extension. This project is incorporating search options such as searching withing certain categories, selecting namespaces in advanced search, and other MW-specific customizations. Down the road these MediaWiki customizations might prove to be invaluable, since they will allow people with some sense of how WE is organized to be able to even more quickly and efficiently search the site. And, by supporting and using Sphinx Search Engine, you are increasing the likelihood that it will improve in this fashion over time.
Here is a link to the Extension, http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SphinxSearch
They also link to a MW instance using SphinxSearch that is worth trying, here, http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Info:Main_Page
Please note that at the bottom of the search results there are MW-specific advanced search options.
My recommendation is that it is worth trying this extension and search engine, first, and then if that still seems to not be meeting the needs of WE users, then we you can compare how well Google Search performs.
In response to Jan's comment, "[...] and we use googlegroups for having these discussions."
That is true, but, it's important to realize that there are simple and powerful alternatives out there as well. I run several mailing lists and some of them are Google Groups, but others are using GNU Mailman. In my experience I find that Google does provide a simple and easy way to quickly set-up a mailing list without having to host anything myself. But, for any larger project I am running and when I already go through the trouble of maintaining a server and a back-up system, etc, then I go ahead and install my own GNU Mailman instance on that server. Once it is set-up, I find it as easy to use as Google Groups. But the real reason I use it is because it gives me the option to customize, configure, and control how I want my mailing-groups to integrate with my projects. For example, you can brand the sign-up page however you want and you can integrate the sign-up and configuration options directly into your web sites so that users don't have to leave your site to configure the mailing lists they belong to. One idea might be to create a MediaWiki extension that uses GNU Mailman -- this would allow mailing lists and mailing lists archives to be integrated directly into WikiEducator. Wouldn't it be nice in a discussion page to be able to refer to an archive page of the mailing list? It could be a beautiful workflow integration :-)
-Josh
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:20 AM, Wayne Mackintosh <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Everyone,
Apology for the long post -- but this is potentially an important policy decision for the WikiEducator community. Since our inception, both WikiEducator and the OER Foundation have subscribed to open philanthropy -- where we discuss and take decisions transparently and collaboratively :-).
We are thinking about improving our search capability by enabling the Google Custom Search box on the WikiEducator site. At that same time we need to think carefully about the conditions and possible policy implications for WikiEducator.
Today we've had a few discussions on our techie list on with reference to improving our search features in WIkiEducator (See: http://groups.google.co.nz/group/wikieducator-tech/browse_frm/thread/e33d2567a6cda18b). Clearly the ability to search and find open content resources in WIkiEducator is a priority for educators, and will increasingly become more important as our project evolves.
The current Mediawiki search capability is not the best search technology in the world. (To be fair to -- "searching" is not the core business of wiki developers.) IMHO, there is still no other open source wiki software which remotely compares to the scalability and power of the Mediawiki software engine and WE are proud to be a Mediawiki site :-).
Technically it is relatively easy for us to implement the Google Custom Search Service on WikiEducator. In short, this will mean we can utilise Google search technology for the WIkiEducator site by inserting a Google search box for using Google technology for searching the WikiEducator website. This provides superior web search results when compared to our current Mediawiki search capability. However, enabling the Google Custom Search on WikiEducator may require a policy decision with reference to using these kinds of ancillary webservices. WE need your advice and guidance.
The substantive issue here is using a web service on the WIkiEducator site which does not meet the requirements of the free cultural works definition for an ancillary activity of the WikiEducator project, Our core business is the creation, remix and reuse of OER which must always meet the requirements of the free cultural works definition. This is non-negotiable and a core value of our community.
A few reflections:
Speaking personally, I'm keen for us to seriously consider using the Google Custom Search under clearly defined paramaters - I think this will add value to WikIEducator without compromising our core values. So here are the questions to think about:
- Should we provide a Google Custom Search box on the WikiEducator site for using Google search technology on the WIkiEducator site? Yes/No?
- Is the community comfortable with Google's terms of service most notably the closed ownership of the search results and the use of closed software to produce the search results? (Personally, I'm OK with this on the grounds that search results are not core content of the WE project --- our OERs must always comply with the free cultural works definition). See Google's terms of service: http://www.google.com/cse/docs/tos.html .
- Regarding advertising -- our practice is not to permit advertising on the WikiEducator site. So I'm pleased to see that Google will allow registered non-profits advert free results. In the event that Google's policy changes in this regard, we would need to reconsider the use of Google Custom search and discontinue the service if we are forced to display text adverts with the search results.
- With reference to our thoughts on advertising - -we are required to use the Google branded search box. I think this is justifiable and not necessarily an "advert" for Google. For example, the Mozilla Foundation allow the brand identities of the searchproviders to be displayed in their software.
Please let us know your thoughts on these issues. In the event that we decide to go with the Google Custom Search facility -- I propose that we table a policy decision for the WIkiEducator Council with regards to non-core services which may not meet all the requirements of the free cultural works definition.
Cheers
Wayne
--
Wayne Mackintosh, Ph.D.
Director,
International Centre for Open Education,
Otago Polytechnic, New Zealand.
Board of Directors, OER Foundation.
Founder and Community Council Member, Wikieducator, www.wikieducator.org
Mobile +64 21 2436 380
User Page: http://wikieducator.org/User:Mackiwg
Skype: WGMNZ1
Twitter: OERFoundation, Mackiwg
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Wayne Mackintosh, Ph.D.
Director,
International Centre for Open Education,
Otago Polytechnic, New Zealand.
Board of Directors, OER Foundation.
Founder and Community Council Member, Wikieducator, www.wikieducator.org
Mobile +64 21 2436 380
User Page: http://wikieducator.org/User:Mackiwg
Skype: WGMNZ1
Twitter: OERFoundation, Mackiwg
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