Hi Kathleen, If you don't mind, please maintain the threading of the posts. Each time you change the subject line it creates a new thread, which makes it harder for people to follow the conversation (both in e-mail, and in threaded view via gmane etc.).
~Nathan On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Kathleen McCook <[email protected]> wrote: > I agree with you, Charles. These fallacies are quite transparent. And it is > too bad that much good effort and input to the Wikipedia initiative can be > lost due to those who feel it is their to be "forthright" (wiggle word) > rather than helpful. There is nothing wrong with being helpful. There > is everything wrong with a nasty officious edge. Even the Rutgers coach > behaviors was finally seen as unacceptable and he sure wasn't as > "forthright" as some editors. > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 7:44 AM, Charles Matthews < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> On 16 April 2013 02:07, Carcharoth <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Incivility is difficult to deal with. >> >> That may be the case; but it's not for the reasons usually given. >> >> > One of the reasons is because there is a school of thought that a >> > certain level of frankness and brusqueness is necessary in a place >> > like Wikipedia. The trouble with that is that people draw the line in >> > different places, partly due to cultural differences, partly due to >> > personal levels of what they will accept. >> >> Yes, well, one of the "differences" is between people who think that >> what they find acceptable should constitute a universal standard; and >> those who realise this is no way to set universal standards. >> >> > Some people also treat this as a matter of principle, rather than as >> > one of being nice. The way I would describe it (though you really need >> > to find an exponent of this view to describe it properly, as I don't >> > support this view myself) is that it is more honest to say what you >> > really think in simple language, than to dissemble and use careful and >> > diplomatic language to essentially say the same thing. I favour the >> > latter approach until a certain tipping point is reached, and will >> > then be more frank myself. >> >> Excessive frankness usually does nothing for relationships. "To be >> frank" usually prefaces something that can usefully be omitted. >> >> > I can see the point people are making when they say that being more >> > forthright earlier on and consistently on a matter of principle is >> > better, but the end result tends to be the same. Hurt feelings all >> > round for those who don't get that viewpoint, and those who have a >> > tendency towards the more brusque approach sometimes (not always) >> > being baited by those who like winding people up. The other effect, >> > most damagingly of all, is that the 'community' (which is a localised, >> > nebulous entity that is in flux at the best of times and varies >> > depending on location and timing) ends up polarised over the issue. >> > >> > So you get periodic flare-ups, exacerbated by the nature of online >> > communications (the lack of body language to and verbal tone) and the >> > lack of empathy for others that some who are drawn to Wikipedia >> > exhibit. >> >> The point being that those who actually use incivility as a wedge to >> divide the community are quite well aware of that, and this is what >> needs to be stamped out as disruption, not intermittent breakdowns of >> the civility code. >> >> I saw a recent study suggesting, alarmingly, that online many people >> find angry language and comment relatively persuasive; presumably >> because they assume it is sincere, and assume that sincerity has >> something to do with being right. I find this much more worrying than >> the traditional "lack of affect" argument, because you'd assume over >> time people would adapt to that (have we not adapted to the phone?) >> >> I think there are probably a couple of serious fallacies being allowed >> to dominate this discussion, still. >> >> Charles >> >> _______________________________________________ >> WikiEN-l mailing list >> [email protected] >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l >> > _______________________________________________ > WikiEN-l mailing list > [email protected] > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list [email protected] To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
