At this point we're really getting somewhat off-topic; Brian, if you want to continue this discussion about the trade-offs around privacy and oversight, feel free to drop me an email. In the meantime, we should probably leave the thread for the original subject ;)
On 29 March 2015 at 14:55, Oliver Keyes <oke...@wikimedia.org> wrote: > Yes, you did state that, but you equated the explanation and > circumstances with the NSA's behaviour, when in actual fact they are > very different. I note that while you've argued that privacy policies > aren't read, that's as far as your rebuttal goes. > > There's no trump of one principle over another, and this is nothing to > do with content neutrality; again, I invite you to surface your > proposal on enwiki. It will completely eliminate the utility of > checkuser or hard-blocks or range blocks, but if the community wants > it as much as you seem to think I'm sure they'll support the idea. > > On 29 March 2015 at 14:10, Brian J Mingus <brian.min...@colorado.edu> wrote: >> In general people do not read privacy policies, nor do they understand what >> IP addresses are or what you can do with them. >> >> But if you recall, I simply stated that recording IP addresses is invasive. >> And it is. >> >> This is especially true when you know that your recordings are faciliating >> the active de-anonymization of people who are editing Wikipedia. Not just >> de-anonymization, but often public shaming. >> >> For WMF, the principle of neutrality clearly trumps the principles of >> privacy and free speech. For the NSA, substitute security for neutrality. >> It's hypocritical. >> >> Luckily, it's easy to fix. Just stuff the ip fields with random numbers and >> deal with the fallout. Stop tracking people. >> >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 2:02 PM, Oliver Keyes <oke...@wikimedia.org> wrote: >>> >>> In order: >>> >>> 1. Yes, the WMF is suing the NSA. There are a few threads/blog posts >>> about this people here can point you to. >>> 2. Brian: The NSA needs to store data without the permission or >>> consent of the people generating it, sometimes through forcible >>> interception, decryption and the introduction and maintenance of >>> software exploits that allow them to do this but also allow any other >>> reasonably technical nation or non-nation actor who is paying >>> attention to exploit the same vulnerability, keeping this data for an >>> indefinite period, with very little legal or political oversight, in >>> order to stop terrorism, where very little evidence exists that this >>> has helped in any way. >>> >>> The WMF needs to store data for a 90 day period, which is explicitly >>> set down in a privacy policy that is transparent, human-readable, >>> linked from every edit interface, written with the involvement of the >>> people whose data is being stored, administered by a committee of >>> people who come from this population of editors, and explicitly sets >>> out what the data may or may not be used for, even within the >>> Wikimedia Foundation, in order to stop vandalism, where multiple >>> scientific studies have validated the hypothesis that being able to >>> make rangeblocks and prohibit sockpuppetry is beneficial to the >>> community we are all a part of and the wider population of readers. >>> >>> That's what's actually going on, here. If you thing these situations >>> are roughly analogous, that's your prerogative. If you think the >>> storage of this data is unnecessary, I recommend you go to your local >>> project and explain to them that being able to checkuser potential >>> sockpuppets or hard-block users is not needed: gaining consensus there >>> would be a good starting point to changing this. >>> >>> On 29 March 2015 at 11:57, James Farrar <james.far...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > Wikipedia is suing the NSA? Seriously? >>> > On 28 Mar 2015 11:23, "Brian J Mingus" <brian.min...@colorado.edu> >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> >> It has worked up to now, but I'm thinking that, especially given >>> >> Wikimedia >>> >> is suing the NSA, it is no longer justifiable. If the NSA can't track >>> >> citizens, Wikimedia shouldn't be tracking them either. Seems simple :) >>> >> >>> >> On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 2:56 PM, Francesco Ariis <fa...@ariis.it> >>> >> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> > On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 01:19:35PM -0400, Brian J Mingus wrote: >>> >> > > I think it's rather curious that edits to Wikipedia aren't private. >>> >> > > Why >>> >> > log >>> >> > > the IP address? Why log anything? It's invasive. >>> >> > >>> >> > I guess it's a sensible choice against abuse (vandalism) while still >>> >> > allowing non registered users editing rights >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>> >> > WikiEN-l mailing list >>> >> > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> >> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: >>> >> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l >>> >> > >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> WikiEN-l mailing list >>> >> WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: >>> >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l >>> >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > WikiEN-l mailing list >>> > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: >>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Oliver Keyes >>> Research Analyst >>> Wikimedia Foundation >> >> > > > > -- > Oliver Keyes > Research Analyst > Wikimedia Foundation -- Oliver Keyes Research Analyst Wikimedia Foundation _______________________________________________ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
