On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Nathan <nawr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Pine says no one suggested firing Gayle or Philippe; I think it's
> clear that whatever semantics are invoked, he did suggest just that.
> That's beyond inappropriate, in my view, and an example of the toxic
> environment that will lead to less fruitful communication from the WMF
> and not more. It's not in Pine's remit as a volunteer to propose that
> WMF employees be demoted, especially over something as picayune as
> administrator rights on a wiki with minimal traffic and less
> importance.
> It's unfathomable that Pine thinks he should be writing to Gayle in
> this way, as if he were her superior and she was obligated to justify
> her continued employment to him personally. In multiple comments in
> recent posts Pine has implied that he has real-world expertise in this
> area... at this point, I find that implication unsupported by evidence
> of communication skills or the ability to appropriately judge context
> and audience reaction.
> It's not traditional to so directly call out a commenter on this list
> for posts that step over the line, particularly when they remain civil
> despite being wildly inappropriate. But I think we need to understand
> that the relationship between volunteers (especially those on the
> mailing lists) and the WMF is a two way street. We can't expect them
> to engage better with us if we permit, even by silence, this type of
> haranguing to continue unchallenged.

I agree with this; thanks for saying it.

==about communication in general==
I think it's worth remembering we all judge each other on the tone and
content of messages that we send here (some sending pseudonymously, some
not). Sometimes I think many of us feel comfortable in saying things that
we might think privately or say casually to a friend, without thinking
about how: a) hundreds of people, including people who have spent years and
years devoted to this work (staff and volunteers alike) may read it and be
affected*; b) these messages are how our own reputations get shaped online,
both good and bad; c) we all just have one perspective on Wikimedia, shaped
by our own experience, which is not necessarily the same as everyone

-- phoebe

* I've had plenty of bad days because of the way Wikimedia-l threads made
me feel about our projects, and plenty of good ones too. I'm not alone in

* I use this address for lists; send personal messages to phoebe.ayers <at>
gmail.com *
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