On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Wil Sinclair <w...@wllm.com> wrote:

> Thanks, Edward! I was starting to worry that no one would ask.
>
> I participate on WO because I think every voice deserves to be heard.
> And I will go wherever people feel comfortable speaking freely to hear
> them. Some of us feel comfortable on this list; others are more
> comfortable on a criticism-oriented site like WO. That social pattern
> is not uncommon, and in these situations I usually feel comfortable in
> both environments.
>
> The trash talk. . . Most of the concerns I've heard about WO involve
> the snarky, personal comments that are front and center in the forums.
> I know this makes it very difficult for many people to listen to
> anything else they have to say. I've called them out on this a few
> times, but I was reminded that everyone is there for different reasons
> and the trash talk somehow works for a few of them. What can I say?
> The great thing about free speech is that everyone is free to say
> anything. The only thing I can think of that might be better is that
> everyone is free to ignore anything. ;)
>
> Beyond the trash talk are some very real concerns from some very
> insightful people. If you're concerned about whether I'm getting
> accurate information, I don't take for granted anything said there
> without a secondary source- just like anything said here. Some of the
> concerns I've heard there seem to be taboo in the mainstream WP
> community. It's very interesting that WO was brought up when I asked
> about Child Protection Policies, for example. Harassment Policy is
> another issue that seems to be unwelcome in some forums. But there are
> also concerns that I've seen come up in this forum, too, like how to
> improve the quality of articles. That's not too surprising, since I'm
> not the only person who is active in both communities. There are more
> concerns than I can go through here, but I started a relatively
> trash-free thread there to get an understanding of their concerns:
> http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4531. Maybe it
> would help others, too. If it would be welcome here, I'd pose the same
> question to understand the greatest concerns in this community.
>
> Finally, I ask everyone to respect my own right to free speech. I am
> not just Lila's partner; I am a person with my own opinions, my own
> motives, my own interests, and my own needs. I have no professional
> affiliation with WMF, and Lila and I have gotten pretty good at
> keeping our professional lives to ourselves at home. For those of you
> who work at the WMF and have voiced concern over my participation on
> WO, you can rest assured that I have absolutely no influence over your
> professional lives. For everyone in the WP community, I'd like you to
> know that I form my personal opinions of people on my direct
> interactions with them- not what someone says on a forum somewhere.
> Please, feel free to interact with me. :) There were also some
> concerns about my mentioning that I communicate with some of the
> people at the WMF about WP stuff. I stopped mentioning any employees
> of the WMF- including those in my immediate family- and I've come to
> the conclusion that it isn't in anyone's best interests to discuss
> anything related to WP in private with WMF employees. I'm kinda
> learning as we go here, so I apologize for any brainfarts like that.
> Ultimately, I'm asking you to treat me as you would any new WP
> contributor, because, at the end of the day, that is all I am.
>
> I'm hoping to get to know all of the people in this forum better. It's
> harder for me to follow along here because a lot of the stuff is very
> specific and often discussed with little context. I'll catch up. In
> the meantime, I'll continue asking questions, some of which may be
> inconvenient. Like I said, I am not Lila; I'm that guy who asks stuff
> while everyone else is hoping he just keeps his mouth shut. :P Please
> respect my right to free speech; I'll be respecting your right to
> ignore me.
>

I don't think you're going to find that anyone thinks you don't have a
right to free speech. For historical context here: on this mailing list
very very few people have ever been banned or put on moderation. It takes a
huge amount of bad behavior to get moderated on Wikimedia mailing lists.

The same culture persists on Wikipedia and most other Wikimedia projects.
The many Wikipedia discussion spaces and the many Wikimedia mailing lists
are extremely open environments where you can see people expressing a wide
variety of perspectives and ideas on how to run the projects. We often get
criticized for not strictly enforcing our civility guidelines/policies.
Many might say we swing too far toward tolerating blatantly rude but
otherwise intelligent/insightful participation.

I figure since you're new it bears repeating: Wikipediocracy isn't really
the go-to general purpose discussion forum for Wikipedia. Wikipedia itself
is the place contributors in good standing talk about the future of the
project. Wikipediocracy is where people go to gossip and troll,
particularly if they are banned and thus can't participate on Wikipedia
anymore.  If you're really interested in Wikipedia culture, Wikipedia is
still a pretty large, rambling, and open conversation space where you can
meet actual contributors. ;-)

Steven
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