On Mon, 1 Dec 2014, at 15:21, Tim Starling wrote: > On 01/12/14 06:10, Todd Allen wrote: > > "Second, well, of course all providers are happy to use Wikipedia (Zero) as > > a door opener to get the customer used to different treatment of data > > (which is a clear violation of net neutrality)." > > > > Exactly this. Net neutrality means that the pipes are totally dumb, not > > favoring -any- service over any other in any way. Not Netflix, not Youtube, > > not Amazon, and not Wikimedia. > > > > Anything that says "Data from this source will be (treated|priced) > > differently than data from another source" is a violation of net > > neutrality. Period. That does not mean the definition is inadequate. The > > definition is there to ensure the pipe -stays dumb-, and that preferential > > treatment is never accepted. > > But the pipes are fundamentally not dumb -- there is a complex > arrangement of transit prices and peering, and the companies that > built transoceanic links want to recoup their investment. What you are > saying is that you want the ISPs to provide the necessary > cross-subsidies so that the pipes will appear to be dumb, to the end user. > > The question for any regulated cross-subsidy should be: what is its > social benefit? If certain telcos are allowed to choose, it will be > cheaper to access Wikipedia than cheezburger.com. Is that appropriate? > What social benefits will it provide if we regulate to ensure that > they are the same price? > > Vertical integration between content providers and ISPs is probably > harmful to competition. The obvious way to deal with that is to split > those companies. But even in a competitive marketplace, from a cost > perspective, it totally makes sense that certain content providers > will continue to be cheaper and/or faster, just because of geography. > > Wikipedia is naturally slow and expensive for many ISPs, because we > don't use a big CDN.
Why don't we? Is it one of the "expensive for us, cheap for users" things? > If ISPs sold services on a cost-plus basis, you > would expect websites delivered via CDN to be cheaper than websites > that are located at a single site, geographically distant from their > users. > > -- Tim Starling > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimediafirstname.lastname@example.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> -- svetlana _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimediaemail@example.com Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>