"on-wiki" and "off-wiki" are concepts that get talked about a lot without
critical examination. As I understand it, the issue of something happening
"off-wiki" is often that a certain entity (for instance, English
Wikipedia's ArbCom) has no ability to enforce what happens off the site,
and little ability to verify that a person using a username elsewhere is
the same person.

But that isn't an issue with a mailing list. Nobody is proposing that any
specific wiki have jurisdiction over a mailing list.

A mailing list of the size and significance of Wikimedia-L should have
reliable and reasonable governance. I am pretty confident that we don't
have it here because Wikimedia-L has grown gradually from an earlier time
when governance was less necessary -- not out of any ill intent of any
person or people.

Fae, I'm glad to hear you started a discussion about this on Meta. Can you
provide a link, or start where it left off? What's required, I think, is
that (1) somebody presents a proposal, (2) the proposal gets discussed and
refined, and then (3) we have some kind of process for establishing whether
there is broad buy-in.

Who's ready to take that first step? I'd be happy to engage in
deliberations around this, but I don't have a specific proposal in mind to
start things off.

As to Tomasz' specific request, I strongly support it. I vaguely recall
hearing about him being placed on moderation, and thinking it was an overly
harsh step -- but to hear that it's gone on for 10 months, and that some of
his messages have not been allowed through in the meantime, does sound
problematic to me. Tomasz is a thoughtful and valued member of the
Wikimedia world, and this list is a better list if it's informed by his
perspective.

Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]

On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 2:37 PM, Bohdan Melnychuk <bas...@yandex.ru> wrote:

> The farther you go from actually wiki the more cabals you get. Secret
> teams, secret decisions, powers in single hand or in hand of a tiny group
> of people selected by criteria unknown. It goes for lists, chats, social
> media pages and whatever out-of-wiki stuff. It's too sad why can't
> wikimedia way of open transparent collaboration and discussion be extended
> on all wikimedia related activity. I'm a naïve person and just don't get
> it. Aren't we the same people when onwiki and offwiki?
>
> This one example is just one of the many others.
>
> It's obvious that such a thing as moderation of a list should be done by
> some rules. It's not a tiny list where just believing in common sense of
> moderators can work. Moderation is like RfD of a sort. We don't just have
> random admins deleting pages onwiki as they wish. Why do we have it this
> way with messages on list?
>
> Can someone bring an RfC or whatever large thing onwiki in order to have
> it regulated finally?
>
> --Base
>
>
> On 09.06.2015 20:28, Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton wrote:
>
>> funny, close list, close decisions, heavy moderation... this is away more
>> present on Wikimedia Movement than should be, but the speech is always the
>> opposite...
>> The "free" is just a  slogan, it's not a value...
>>
>>
>> On 9 June 2015 at 09:24, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Thanks.
>>>
>>> Note that secret complaints or allegations that are not shared, are
>>> neither
>>> evidence nor a clear rationale for the moderated person.
>>>
>>> An open and transparent process is desirable for everyone.
>>>
>>> Fae
>>> On 9 Jun 2015 13:04, "David Gerard" <dger...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>  On 9 June 2015 at 12:08, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Considering my poor experience on another list of being moderated
>>>>> without a clear explanation or evidence,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This claim is factually inaccurate. You were put on mod on
>>>> wikimediauk-l after multiple complaints from other readers about
>>>> repeated obnoxious behaviour on your part, particularly when you
>>>> started again after promising you'd stop.
>>>>
>>>> You're off mod now, but please don't start up again.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - d.
>>>>
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>>
>>
>
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