Yes, sorry, they did *not* communicate it with me.

They finally came to a great decision, it would have been perfect if they
had just made a public announcement here.

Romaine



2015-08-31 0:26 GMT+02:00 MF-Warburg <mfwarb...@googlemail.com>:

> Did you mean they did /not/ tell you?
>
> 2015-08-31 0:16 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <romaine.w...@gmail.com>:
>
> > The most annoying part now is that the fundraising team did tell me thta,
> > while I ma in change of the banners.
> >
> > How is it possible that they do worse and worse each time?
> >
> > Romaine
> >
> > 2015-08-30 22:20 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <zanni.andre...@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > Hello everybody.
> > > I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to
> > run
> > > the Fundraising banner in Italy during September.
> > >
> > > In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board
> > worked
> > > hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we
> > > continued a very honest and direct conversation.
> > > I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all.
> > >
> > > I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they
> > > will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it
> > > welcomed with the respect it deserves.
> > >
> > > Best regards
> > >
> > > Andrea
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki <
> > > steinsplitter-w...@live.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]!
> > > >
> > > > So we can see what the community thinks about this.
> > > >
> > > > [1]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> > > >
> > > > > Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200
> > > > > From: romaine.w...@gmail.com
> > > > > To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org;
> > > > wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> > Monuments
> > > > in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that
> it
> > > is
> > > > > time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this
> > > > situation. I
> > > > > have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments
> > organising
> > > > > teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in
> > September,
> > > > and
> > > > > the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in
> > > > > September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the
> > > > Wikimedia
> > > > > movement?
> > > > >
> > > > > To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this
> > situation, I
> > > > > have set up this Request for Comment:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner
> > > > >
> > > > > Romaine
> > > > >
> > > > > 2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <romaine.w...@gmail.com>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > New update:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it
> > > > resulted
> > > > > > in:
> > > > > > * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So
> we
> > > will
> > > > > > have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week.
> > > > > > * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main
> > Page
> > > of
> > > > > > Wikipedia
> > > > > > * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner
> > > > > > * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors.
> > > > > > * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and
> social
> > > > media
> > > > > > fire
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They made clear this won't happen again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen
> > again,
> > > > what
> > > > > > we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that
> the
> > > > amount
> > > > > > of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of
> the
> > > > time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes.
> > Wiki
> > > > Loves
> > > > > > Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most
> > > > visitors to
> > > > > > Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe
> a
> > > > small
> > > > > > link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen.
> I
> > do
> > > > not
> > > > > > believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would
> work.
> > A
> > > > > > blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the
> > > largest
> > > > > > project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach
> to
> > > the
> > > > core
> > > > > > people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media
> fire,
> > I
> > > > have
> > > > > > no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the
> > core
> > > > > > infrastructure is not under control by WMF.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the
> > > fundraising
> > > > > > banner to a month later...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch:
> > afgescheept
> > > > > > worden (literally: being shipped of).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is
> > large
> > > > > > ruined by it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising
> > > team
> > > > of
> > > > > > WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too
> many
> > > > empty
> > > > > > promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair
> > > > > > negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> > > > multiple
> > > > > > people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do
> not
> > > > really
> > > > > > get it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people
> from
> > > WMF
> > > > who
> > > > > > are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to
> explain
> > > > what
> > > > > > Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is
> > the
> > > > > > largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo
> > contest
> > > > in the
> > > > > > world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so
> > > > friendly to
> > > > > > explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by
> > > > multiple
> > > > > > people, they do not really get it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lessons to be learned:
> > > > > > * Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position
> > for
> > > > the
> > > > > > movement, they have a target to make.
> > > > > > * Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They
> have a
> > > > lot of
> > > > > > weight and use it.
> > > > > > * Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking
> > banner)
> > > > is a
> > > > > > balanced, reasonable and well thought one.
> > > > > > * Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something.
> > > > > > * Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not
> > > impressed
> > > > by
> > > > > > those.
> > > > > > * Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners
> at
> > > the
> > > > > > same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results.
> Yes
> > > you
> > > > > > can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously.
> > > > > > * Always have the complete team involved in the communication,
> and
> > > even
> > > > > > think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and
> > feedback
> > > > on the
> > > > > > proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of
> experience
> > > in
> > > > this
> > > > > > matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking
> banner,
> > > let
> > > > > > the community publicly decide what should be chosen.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Romaine
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki <
> > > > steinsplitter-w...@live.com
> > > > > > >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer
> > > first
> > > > > >> should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for
> exactly
> > > zero
> > > > > >> dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other
> > > > stuff, but
> > > > > >> not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor
> > > > important
> > > > > >> than free knowledge. It is frustrating...
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Regards,
> > > > > >> Steinsplitter
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > From: rupert.thur...@gmail.com
> > > > > >> > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200
> > > > > >> > To: janb...@wikimedia.org; patricio.lore...@gmail.com;
> > > > > >> me.ly...@gmail.com; ubifri...@gmail.com; jmh...@gmail.com;
> > > > > >> dar...@alk.edu.pl; denny.vrande...@kit.edu; jwa...@wikia.com;
> > > > > >> s...@wikimedia.org
> > > > > >> > CC: wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org;
> > > > > >> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > >> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves
> > > > Monuments
> > > > > >> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > dear board,
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons
> > to
> > > > spoil
> > > > > >> > wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs.
> WMF
> > > > cannot
> > > > > >> and
> > > > > >> > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop.
> there
> > > is a
> > > > > >> simple
> > > > > >> > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined
> > banner
> > > > for
> > > > > >> WLM
> > > > > >> > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is
> > > > covered by
> > > > > >> > the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the
> > > only
> > > > > >> ones i
> > > > > >> > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space
> > policy.
> > > > if we
> > > > > >> as
> > > > > >> > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than
> > it
> > > is
> > > > > >> better
> > > > > >> > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the
> > rights
> > > > to the
> > > > > >> > web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all
> the
> > > > people
> > > > > >> > doing some work.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > best,
> > > > > >> > rupert
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni <
> > > > zanni.andre...@gmail.com
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > wrote:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > > Hello everyone.
> > > > > >> > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the
> situation
> > > for
> > > > > >> > > Wikimedia Italia.
> > > > > >> > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some
> > > > important
> > > > > >> > > points.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been
> > contacted
> > > > by
> > > > > >> > > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who
> > explained
> > > > that
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising
> > campaign
> > > > in
> > > > > >> Italy
> > > > > >> > > in September.
> > > > > >> > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments
> is
> > > > > >> well-known to
> > > > > >> > > run in September, and it has been like that for years.
> > > > > >> > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014:  we
> > discussed
> > > > for
> > > > > >> several
> > > > > >> > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR
> > banners
> > > > went
> > > > > >> live
> > > > > >> > > just for the last days.
> > > > > >> > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all
> > > > September.
> > > > > >> > > This year the clash is on the whole month of September.
> Given
> > > the
> > > > > >> history,
> > > > > >> > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and
> > > > written
> > > > > >> so in
> > > > > >> > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been
> negligible
> > > in
> > > > > >> matters
> > > > > >> > > of
> > > > > >> > > communication.
> > > > > >> > > We are not *happy* with the situation,
> > > > > >> > > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this
> > appeared
> > > > in
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few
> > > weeks
> > > > > >> before
> > > > > >> > > the beginning of WLM.
> > > > > >> > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in
> > > > constructive
> > > > > >> > > conversation and negotiation.
> > > > > >> > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM:
> > it's
> > > > just
> > > > > >> better
> > > > > >> > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for
> just a
> > > few
> > > > > >> days in
> > > > > >> > > the middle of September.
> > > > > >> > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite:
> this
> > > > does
> > > > > >> not
> > > > > >> > > mean that we are happy about what is happening.
> > > > > >> > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate
> > > expected
> > > > > >> results
> > > > > >> > > for WLM in 2015.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a
> > > clear
> > > > > >> negative
> > > > > >> > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of
> > Wikimedia
> > > > > >> Italia.
> > > > > >> > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants
> > and
> > > > > >> uploaded
> > > > > >> > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in
> > front
> > > > of our
> > > > > >> > > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+
> > > > cultural
> > > > > >> > > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the
> > Federation
> > > > of
> > > > > >> Italian
> > > > > >> > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International
> Council
> > of
> > > > > >> Museums),
> > > > > >> > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring
> > Club
> > > > > >> Italiano
> > > > > >> > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others.
> WMIT
> > > > spends
> > > > > >> > > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste
> > > money,
> > > > but
> > > > > >> > > because we have higher stakes.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international
> > > renowned
> > > > > >> > > photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve
> > > McCurry (
> > > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco
> > > Fontana (
> > > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana).
> > > > > >> > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > >> > > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law
> > we
> > > > are
> > > > > >> > > fighting
> > > > > >> > > as WMIT.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy
> goes
> > > > beyond
> > > > > >> being
> > > > > >> > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to
> > create
> > > > > >> > > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking
> pictures
> > of
> > > > > >> monuments.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama".
> > > > > >> > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind
> of
> > > > > >> monuments,
> > > > > >> > > even if copyright has expired.
> > > > > >> > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments.
> > > For.
> > > > > >> Every.
> > > > > >> > > Monument.
> > > > > >> > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed.
> There
> > > is
> > > > no
> > > > > >> > > official list of monuments in Italy.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > There is *extensive* documentation here:
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_projects
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM
> Italy
> > > > stats:
> > > > > >> > > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > > >> reason
> > > > > >> > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics
> > > > each. In
> > > > > >> 2014
> > > > > >> > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms
> of
> > > > number
> > > > > >> of
> > > > > >> > > photos.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement.
> > > > > >> > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the
> > > Wikimedia
> > > > > >> > > Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course,
> also
> > > > Wiki
> > > > > >> Loves
> > > > > >> > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from
> > other
> > > > > >> sources).
> > > > > >> > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia
> > > movement:
> > > > > >> but, for
> > > > > >> > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of
> > the
> > > > very
> > > > > >> > > activities it is meant to support.
> > > > > >> > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours
> editathon
> > > in a
> > > > > >> small
> > > > > >> > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international
> > > > > >> competition
> > > > > >> > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing
> thousands
> > of
> > > > > >> pictures
> > > > > >> > > to the Wikimedia projects.
> > > > > >> > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job,
> especially
> > > > when it
> > > > > >> is
> > > > > >> > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors
> > money
> > > to
> > > > > >> build
> > > > > >> > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect
> > for
> > > > all
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or
> their
> > > > career
> > > > > >> to the
> > > > > >> > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could
> > also
> > > > have a
> > > > > >> > > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns.
> > > > > >> > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF
> > > > fundraising
> > > > > >> team
> > > > > >> > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like
> to
> > be
> > > > > >> confident
> > > > > >> > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time,
> and
> > > > that in
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and
> > work
> > > > more
> > > > > >> > > collaboratively.
> > > > > >> > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation
> > with
> > > > WMF
> > > > > >> and all
> > > > > >> > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar
> > of
> > > > all
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > Wikimedia movement.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and
> > gave
> > > us
> > > > > >> opinions
> > > > > >> > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere.
> > > > > >> > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and
> we
> > > > would
> > > > > >> like
> > > > > >> > > to see it become wider and bigger.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Andrea Zanni
> > > > > >> > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia
> > > > > >> > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> > > > > >> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > >> > > Unsubscribe:
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