Chris - and I suspect others - who are already welcome to join this list - are why I think it is not a foregone conclusion that it will be kept private.
Remember that we have a diverse group of 80+ affiliates. It may in fact not be that the will of the ones who requested it represents the will of everyone. However, I am not personally comfortably declaring that on their behalf. I would prefer to allow them to discuss it and go from there. -greg > On Oct 19, 2015, at 3:12 PM, Chris Keating <chriskeatingw...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Looking at the current (private) chapters' list, for at least a year 90%+ > of the traffic has been announcements that were cross-posted to > Wikimedia-l. The other 10% is invitations and requests addressed to > "chapters people" that might be boring to most people on wikimedia-l but > could have been publically archived with no problem. > > The last "private" thing to happen on that list was discussion of the 2014 > Affiliate Selected Board Seats process - actually not so much the process > itself but how to deal with an intemperate email from someone from the > English Wikipedia Signpost who was threatening to write an article about > the process being an undemocratic sham. Apart from that we are stretching > back into 2013 and the death throes of the WCA before anyone said anything > interesting on the list. > > On the subject of email lists, internal-l which is meant to be "chapters > plus WMF staff" has had virtually no traffic for literally years. There was > at one point a limit on the number of representatives of chapters that > could be on internal-l (and IIRC on the chapters list) but that never > really served any purpose (it certainly didn't improve the signal to noise > ratio...) > > What does all of this mean? I think it's pretty clear that broad-based > private-access lists aren't serving any purpose. My preferred option would > be to either ditch the Chapters mailing list or make it announce-only, > scrap Internal-l entirely, and have an "affiliates" list that is open. > > Chris > > > On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 7:21 PM, Gregory Varnum <gregory.var...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> There has already been discussion amongst some affiliates about this issue >> (including one on Meta-Wiki) - which is where this comes from. >> >> I suggest we leave it private for now and see what the affiliates on the >> list would like to do. >> >> I disagree with your sentiment that none of the 10 points require privacy. >> One of them is discussing affiliate-specific issues - which might include >> financial or privacy issues facing an affiliates, an interaction with the >> WMF, or advice on discussing an issue with the broader community. My >> understanding is that there is a fear people may be more reserved in >> discussing topics if their comments are up for public discussion. >> >> If private lists or wikis were a new concept, I think the expectation >> might be something more fair to proceed with. However, there are several >> private lists already in use, and as stated, this is in response to >> requests from affiliates. That request included that the list be made >> private, which seems reasonable. >> >> Ultimately, I do not feel comfortable making this decision for the >> affiliates, and since they initially requested it be private, I would like >> to respect that and allow them to discuss it more. >> >> I agree that having a discussion about how we achieve transparency is >> worth doing. However, starting that discussion (or restarting it I suppose) >> by imposing a new measure that was specifically not wanted by the target >> audience of that resource is not the best way to move things forward. The >> end result would likely be that they wind up not using the list as much, or >> create a separate list to fulfill their initial request. I would like to >> avoid that. >> >> -greg >> >> >>> On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:56 PM, Sam Klein <sjkl...@hcs.harvard.edu> wrote: >>> >>> +1 for public archives to start. Private lists are almost never made >>> public later, even where there's no need for privacy. >>> >>> A more transparent alternative is to make any list publicly-archived >>> (archives world-readable, even if membership and ability to post to the >>> list is restricted), while setting it up and discussing its purpose. If >>> list members have specific uses that would require privacy, that purpose >>> can drive a decision to make it private. Then at least those founding >>> discussions and the reason for list privacy are visible to others. >>> >>> The converse doesn't happen. The only people whose voices count in a >>> decision to make a list public are generally those already on the list. >>> And they have access, so they have no pressing need to review whether its >>> archives should be public. >>> >>> Gregory Varnum writes: >>>> the whole point of creating it would be defeated. >>> >>> Well, Carlos mentioned 10 uses for the list, none of which need private >>> discussion. It sounds like you're saying an 11th is "encouraging >> affiliates >>> who don't currently write about their work and experiences, to do so" and >>> you think a significant number will only do so if their messages are not >>> publicly visible or archived. >>> >>> The downside is that you defined the list very broadly, also encouraging >>> people who currently write about their work publicly to start using this >>> new list: so now those thoughts will be lost to the larger community >>> forever. And the majority of outreach projects, event organizers, local >>> communities, and groups (which aren't interested in going through a >> formal >>> recognition process) will be walled out. >>> >>> SJ >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Gregory Varnum < >> gregory.var...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Our current plan is to bring this up with the list once there is a good >>>> number of people on it. >>>> >>>> Given that the list is for affiliates, our feeling is that it is best >> for >>>> them to decide how they would like to use the list. If a structure is >>>> imposed on them, it is less likely they will use the list, and the whole >>>> point of creating it would be defeated. Since there were requests for >> the >>>> list to be private, it seemed easier to start from that point and make >>>> changes based on the consensus of those we hope will utilize the list >> most. >>>> >>>> -greg (User:Varnent) >>>> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Ed Erhart <the.e...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I too question the need for a private mailing list. We should require >>>> more >>>>> than a just a "consistent request" before we reduce transparency and >>>> create >>>>> yet another walled garden away from the community. >>>>> >>>>> --Ed >>>>> On Oct 16, 2015 12:07 AM, "Pine W" <wiki.p...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Got it. Thanks Varnent. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regarding the privacy question: I'm sort of thinking that if we really >>>> want >>>>>> to keep the new list private for legal or other reasons, it should be >>>> run >>>>>> outside of WMF servers like the chapters list is. On the other hand, >> if >>>> the >>>>>> purpose of the new list is to facilitate discussion among affiliates >> in >>>> a >>>>>> smaller and less public group while still being open to WMF employees >>>> to a >>>>>> limited degree, then the hosting proposed here makes sense. >> Personally, >>>> I >>>>>> get the sense that the affiliate and WMF relationships have generally >>>>>> (there are exceptions) warmed a bit over the past couple of years as >>>>>> affiliate governance and leadership have evolved and as WMF's >> evaluation >>>>>> capacity has improved, so I'm fine with the new design. Thanks for >>>> working >>>>>> on this. >>>>>> >>>>>> Pine >>>>>> On Oct 15, 2015 8:55 PM, "Gregory Varnum" <gregory.var...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hey Pine, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As you know, AffCom started looking into this list after some >>>> discussions >>>>>>> with affiliates in Berlin, Wikimania, and at that page you referred >> to. >>>>>> We >>>>>>> did talk with that list’s moderators about potentially reusing that >>>> list >>>>>>> (largely why the creation of this list took awhile). However, >>>> ultimately, >>>>>>> we decided to proceed with the creation of this list. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The old list is not on Wikimedia servers or officially connected to >>>>>>> AffCom, so I cannot speak to its future. However, it has becoming >>>>>>> increasingly inactive, is limited to chapters (so excludes a majority >>>> of >>>>>>> our affiliates), and not something we have promoted recently. My >>>> personal >>>>>>> hope is that this new broader list replaces that one over time, but >>>> that >>>>>> is >>>>>>> not something we can “force” as it’s not a resource we officially >> help >>>>>>> manage. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -greg (User:Varnent) >>>>>>> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:19 PM, Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Carlos, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Can you clarify how this list relates to the existing chapters >> mailing >>>>>>>> list? (Also, please see the discussion at >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment >>>>>>>> ). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pine >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Carlos M. Colina < >>>>>>> ma...@wikimedia.org.ve> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to introduce >> the >>>>>>>>> launch of the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list, which is >> basically a >>>>>>> place >>>>>>>>> for all the affiliates (chapters, thematic organizations, user >>>> groups) >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> discuss issues related to affiliates, make announcements to other >>>>>>>>> affiliates, and collaborate on activities and community-wide >> events. >>>>>> The >>>>>>>>> idea is to help facilitate the dialogue affiliates across our >>>>>> movement, >>>>>>>>> plus collaborative discussions like community-wide activities, >> joint >>>>>>>>> edit-a-thons, regional conferences, blog/report posts, or other >>>>>>>>> communications from affiliates. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Each Wikimedia movement affiliate is allocated three spots on the >>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>>>> list. All affiliates may contact the Affiliations Committee to >>>> request >>>>>>>>> additional spots if needed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Please find a bit more information on Meta: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_mailing_list >>>>>>>>> and do not hesitate contacting us if you have further questions. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>> Carlos >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee >>>>>> wayuukanairua >>>>>>>>> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya >>>>>> junain." >>>>>>>>> Carlos M. Colina >>>>>>>>> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 | >>>>>>> www.wikimedia.org.ve >>>>>>>>> <http://wikimedia.org.ve> >>>>>>>>> Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee >>>>>>>>> Phone: +972-52-4869915 >>>>>>>>> Twitter: @maor_x >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l >>>>>> , >>>>>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org >> ?subject=unsubscribe> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l >>>> , >>>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>>>>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>>> Unsubscribe: >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>>>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l >> , >>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Samuel Klein @metasj w:user:sj +1 617 529 >> 4266 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>