Chris - and I suspect others - who are already welcome to join this list - are 
why I think it is not a foregone conclusion that it will be kept private.

Remember that we have a diverse group of 80+ affiliates. It may in fact not be 
that the will of the ones who requested it represents the will of everyone. 
However, I am not personally comfortably declaring that on their behalf. I 
would prefer to allow them to discuss it and go from there.

-greg

> On Oct 19, 2015, at 3:12 PM, Chris Keating <chriskeatingw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Looking at the current (private) chapters' list, for at least a year 90%+
> of the traffic has been announcements that were cross-posted to
> Wikimedia-l. The other 10% is invitations and requests addressed to
> "chapters people" that might be boring to most people on wikimedia-l but
> could have been publically archived with no problem.
> 
> The last "private" thing to happen on that list was discussion of the 2014
> Affiliate Selected Board Seats process - actually not so much the process
> itself but how to deal with an intemperate email from someone from the
> English Wikipedia Signpost who was threatening to write an article about
> the process being an undemocratic sham.  Apart from that we are stretching
> back into 2013 and the death throes of the WCA before anyone said anything
> interesting on the list.
> 
> On the subject of email lists, internal-l which is meant to be "chapters
> plus WMF staff" has had virtually no traffic for literally years. There was
> at one point a limit on the number of representatives of chapters that
> could be on internal-l (and IIRC on the chapters list) but that never
> really served any purpose (it certainly didn't improve the signal to noise
> ratio...)
> 
> What does all of this mean? I think it's pretty clear that broad-based
> private-access lists aren't serving any purpose. My preferred option would
> be to either ditch the Chapters mailing list or make it announce-only,
> scrap Internal-l entirely, and have an "affiliates" list that is open.
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 7:21 PM, Gregory Varnum <gregory.var...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> There has already been discussion amongst some affiliates about this issue
>> (including one on Meta-Wiki) - which is where this comes from.
>> 
>> I suggest we leave it private for now and see what the affiliates on the
>> list would like to do.
>> 
>> I disagree with your sentiment that none of the 10 points require privacy.
>> One of them is discussing affiliate-specific issues - which might include
>> financial or privacy issues facing an affiliates, an interaction with the
>> WMF, or advice on discussing an issue with the broader community. My
>> understanding is that there is a fear people may be more reserved in
>> discussing topics if their comments are up for public discussion.
>> 
>> If private lists or wikis were a new concept, I think the expectation
>> might be something more fair to proceed with. However, there are several
>> private lists already in use, and as stated, this is in response to
>> requests from affiliates. That request included that the list be made
>> private, which seems reasonable.
>> 
>> Ultimately, I do not feel comfortable making this decision for the
>> affiliates, and since they initially requested it be private, I would like
>> to respect that and allow them to discuss it more.
>> 
>> I agree that having a discussion about how we achieve transparency is
>> worth doing. However, starting that discussion (or restarting it I suppose)
>> by imposing a new measure that was specifically not wanted by the target
>> audience of that resource is not the best way to move things forward. The
>> end result would likely be that they wind up not using the list as much, or
>> create a separate list to fulfill their initial request. I would like to
>> avoid that.
>> 
>> -greg
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:56 PM, Sam Klein <sjkl...@hcs.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>> +1 for public archives to start.  Private lists are almost never made
>>> public later, even where there's no need for privacy.
>>> 
>>> A more transparent alternative is to make any list publicly-archived
>>> (archives world-readable, even if membership and ability to post to the
>>> list is restricted), while setting it up and discussing its purpose.  If
>>> list members have specific uses that would require privacy, that purpose
>>> can drive a decision to make it private. Then at least those founding
>>> discussions and the reason for list privacy are visible to others.
>>> 
>>> The converse doesn't happen.  The only people whose voices count in a
>>> decision to make a list public are generally those already on the list.
>>> And they have access, so they have no pressing need to review whether its
>>> archives should be public.
>>> 
>>> Gregory Varnum writes:
>>>> the whole point of creating it would be defeated.
>>> 
>>> Well, Carlos mentioned 10 uses for the list, none of which need private
>>> discussion. It sounds like you're saying an 11th is "encouraging
>> affiliates
>>> who don't currently write about their work and experiences, to do so" and
>>> you think a significant number will only do so if their messages are not
>>> publicly visible or archived.
>>> 
>>> The downside is that you defined the list very broadly, also encouraging
>>> people who currently write about their work publicly to start using this
>>> new list: so now those thoughts will be lost to the larger community
>>> forever.  And the majority of outreach projects, event organizers, local
>>> communities, and groups (which aren't interested in going through a
>> formal
>>> recognition process) will be walled out.
>>> 
>>> SJ
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Gregory Varnum <
>> gregory.var...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Our current plan is to bring this up with the list once there is a good
>>>> number of people on it.
>>>> 
>>>> Given that the list is for affiliates, our feeling is that it is best
>> for
>>>> them to decide how they would like to use the list. If a structure is
>>>> imposed on them, it is less likely they will use the list, and the whole
>>>> point of creating it would be defeated. Since there were requests for
>> the
>>>> list to be private, it seemed easier to start from that point and make
>>>> changes based on the consensus of those we hope will utilize the list
>> most.
>>>> 
>>>> -greg (User:Varnent)
>>>> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Ed Erhart <the.e...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I too question the need for a private mailing list. We should require
>>>> more
>>>>> than a just a "consistent request" before we reduce transparency and
>>>> create
>>>>> yet another walled garden away from the community.
>>>>> 
>>>>> --Ed
>>>>> On Oct 16, 2015 12:07 AM, "Pine W" <wiki.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Got it. Thanks Varnent.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Regarding the privacy question: I'm sort of thinking that if we really
>>>> want
>>>>>> to keep the new list private for legal or other reasons, it should be
>>>> run
>>>>>> outside of WMF servers like the chapters list is. On the other hand,
>> if
>>>> the
>>>>>> purpose of the new list is to facilitate discussion among affiliates
>> in
>>>> a
>>>>>> smaller and less public group while still being open to WMF employees
>>>> to a
>>>>>> limited degree, then the hosting proposed here makes sense.
>> Personally,
>>>> I
>>>>>> get the sense that the affiliate and WMF relationships have generally
>>>>>> (there are exceptions) warmed a bit over the past couple of years as
>>>>>> affiliate governance and leadership have evolved and as WMF's
>> evaluation
>>>>>> capacity has improved, so I'm fine with the new design. Thanks for
>>>> working
>>>>>> on this.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Pine
>>>>>> On Oct 15, 2015 8:55 PM, "Gregory Varnum" <gregory.var...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hey Pine,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> As you know, AffCom started looking into this list after some
>>>> discussions
>>>>>>> with affiliates in Berlin, Wikimania, and at that page you referred
>> to.
>>>>>> We
>>>>>>> did talk with that list’s moderators about potentially reusing that
>>>> list
>>>>>>> (largely why the creation of this list took awhile). However,
>>>> ultimately,
>>>>>>> we decided to proceed with the creation of this list.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The old list is not on Wikimedia servers or officially connected to
>>>>>>> AffCom, so I cannot speak to its future. However, it has becoming
>>>>>>> increasingly inactive, is limited to chapters (so excludes a majority
>>>> of
>>>>>>> our affiliates), and not something we have promoted recently. My
>>>> personal
>>>>>>> hope is that this new broader list replaces that one over time, but
>>>> that
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> not something we can “force” as it’s not a resource we officially
>> help
>>>>>>> manage.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -greg (User:Varnent)
>>>>>>> Vice Chair, Affiliations Committee
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:19 PM, Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi Carlos,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Can you clarify how this list relates to the existing chapters
>> mailing
>>>>>>>> list? (Also, please see the discussion at
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Affiliates_Network#Mailing_list_request_for_comment
>>>>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Pine
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Carlos M. Colina <
>>>>>>> ma...@wikimedia.org.ve>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On behalf of the Affiliations Committe, I am pleased to introduce
>> the
>>>>>>>>> launch of the Wikimedia Affiliates mailing list, which is
>> basically a
>>>>>>> place
>>>>>>>>> for all the affiliates (chapters, thematic organizations, user
>>>> groups)
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> discuss issues related to affiliates, make announcements to other
>>>>>>>>> affiliates, and collaborate on activities and community-wide
>> events.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>> idea is to help facilitate the dialogue affiliates across our
>>>>>> movement,
>>>>>>>>> plus collaborative discussions like community-wide activities,
>> joint
>>>>>>>>> edit-a-thons, regional conferences, blog/report posts, or other
>>>>>>>>> communications from affiliates.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Each Wikimedia movement affiliate is allocated three spots on the
>>>>>>> mailing
>>>>>>>>> list. All affiliates may contact the Affiliations Committee to
>>>> request
>>>>>>>>> additional spots if needed.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Please find a bit more information on Meta:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/Affiliates_mailing_list
>>>>>>>>> and do not hesitate contacting us if you have further questions.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Carlos
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee
>>>>>> wayuukanairua
>>>>>>>>> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya
>>>>>> junain."
>>>>>>>>> Carlos M. Colina
>>>>>>>>> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
>>>>>>> www.wikimedia.org.ve
>>>>>>>>> <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
>>>>>>>>> Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
>>>>>>>>> Phone: +972-52-4869915
>>>>>>>>> Twitter: @maor_x
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Samuel Klein          @metasj          w:user:sj          +1 617 529
>> 4266
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