Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 23:06, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> a écrit :
Hoi,
Your sarcasm is nothing but discrimination. You throw everybody who beliefs
on one pile.


I don't know how anyone could be more explicit on his treatment of the problems of making an overt generalisation, yet you attack me personally on the alleged grounds that I have accused all religious people of being violent.

Just as if a religion, any religion is needed for people to
get off the rails. There are plenty of examples of that.

I never said so. I don't think so. Jainism serves as a good example of how faith-based beliefs may be completely harmless depending on what the claims are. However, I do think religion is one of the ways some people get off the rails, and that this is a problem that goes largely underestimated and unacknowledged, firstly because most people subscribe to a religion and second because it is so easy to confuse the criticism of intolerance and bigotry with actual intolerance and bigotry. But this is irrelevant as far as my original reply to Gnangarra and Vandenberg are concerned because I didn't even touch that point. All I said is that I find it extremely dishonest to claim that these attacks had nothing to do with Islam, whatever the extremism and interpretations of ISIS might be and however disconnected and offensive their deeds might look like for the rest of Muslims.


As to who is an actual Muslim and who understands the sunna and its
interpretation particularly in the light of Daesh, they are two distinct
questions.
Any typical Muslim will leave the finer points to the scholars,

"Leaving" sounds like a bad idea. What is so great about experts is that they shortcut the access to wisdom, but they shouldn't be used as an excuse to waive intellectual responsibility. Scholars disagree, scholars make mistakes , and it will be up to the average person to evaluate the problem at hand. Scholars seldom enroll into armed conflict, average people do.

any typical Muslim will disagree with Daesh on many major points.

I'm so glad they do and I would like to thank them for it, but this doesn't change a bit the relationship of Islam as a many-stranded religion and the attacks at Paris. On the other hand I'm not so comfortable that said major points don't include things like intolerance for other faiths, specially non-Abrahamic ones, death penalty for adultery, the imposition of Sharia in Western judicial systems and other topics which are agreed upon by big fractions of Muslims.[1]

By the way, I have no special focus on your religion; it's part of the subject of this thread.
Regards

[1]: http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf

Thanks,
       GerardM

On 15 November 2015 at 23:09, Isaac David <isacdaa...@isacdaavid.info>
wrote:

 <sarcasm>
Yes, because there are many nice self-avowed Jewish, Muslims, Christians, etc. around the world. Therefore when some bad people do something horrible in the name of their cultural and ideological identity it actually has nothing to do with the ideas themselves, it's always got to be some other historical, social or psychological factor, otherwise we would be linking
 bad guys with good guys.
 </sarcasm>

 But who are you to decide who is an actual Muslim and who isn't?

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman


Le dim. 15 nov. 2015 à 15:47, John Mark Vandenberg <jay...@gmail.com> a
 écrit :

On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote:

Not sure we should be making such a link as the events in Paris are not about Islam just as the actions of the women in Kentucky was not a
  reflection of Christianity. Paris is not the only place its
 unfortunately
  its not even the latest place to fall victim to ISIS.

Wikimedia is a world wide community and the focus on Paris ignores all
 our
other communities who have over the last week, months. year or longer
 have
been affected by acts of terrorism, I think we should exercise care
 when we
adopt activities that elevate events or imply some guilt of association
  immortalizing that as fact in a place like wikipedia


Very much agree broadly with Gnangarra, especially about links with Islam.
 The most positive and wiki way to respond is to ensure we're being
 neutral, and that the reality of all attacks around the world are
being adequately and accurately recorded in a balanced manner from a
 worldwide perspective.

 However the attack on Paris is widely viewed as an escalation, not
because a citizen of one country is more valued than another, because
 some places are more treasured by larger number of people of the
 world, and also we're more shocked as we expect they are better
 protected, and that creates an elevation of its own.

I appreciate the Signpost for very tastefully responding, in a measured
 way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2015-11-11/Gallery

 --
 John Vandenberg

 _______________________________________________
 Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
 Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

 _______________________________________________
 Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
 Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
 <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Reply via email to