Hoi,
Sorry the important point is that we should invest where the most benefit
is. The Wikipedia community is toxic when you talk functionality. It is
much better to spend effort where it makes a difference, where it is
welcome and where it does add value.
Thanks,
     GerardM

On 25 February 2016 at 08:29, Anthony Cole <ahcole...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think we agree on the important points. There's a huge potential in
> Wikidata, and it looks like it's in good hands. Commons could be so much
> better than it is.
>
> Anthony Cole
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > Nice that you prove my point. My point was that when proper attention
> would
> > be given to Commons, it would stand proud. Important achievements have
> been
> > made, because of Commons and its community we have GLAM (just as an
> > example).
> >
> > When it was possible to find images in Commons, it would no longer be
> > dysfunctional. It is a travesty that while we discuss search in the light
> > of the recent huha, we have important functionality from Wikidata that
> > increases the results substantially for any and all languages and the
> > notion that finding material in Commons (aka search) is so bad that I do
> > not even consider Commons for illustrations for my blog..
> >
> > Even on this Wikimedia-l demonstrate how limited their understanding is
> of
> > what it is what we do and where we can easily even cheaply improve,
> >
> > If you want 100,000 more editors for Wikipedia (any language) there is
> such
> > a glaring opportunity that people do not even see it before them. It
> would
> > not cost much and it will improve their well being in a meaningful way.
> > Thanks,
> >        GerardM
> >
> > On 25 February 2016 at 07:37, Anthony Cole <ahcole...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Yes, I guess Commons is kind of useful - as an adjunct to Wikipedia.
> > > Leaving aside its usefulness to Wikipedia, though, would anyone else
> > notice
> > > if it disappeared tomorrow? If they did, Flickr and Google would fill
> any
> > > gap overnight.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Anthony Cole
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 2:25 PM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > > gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > You are wrong. The English Wikipedia is only brutally big. Wikidata
> is
> > > > slowly but surely becoming one of the most important resources for
> data
> > > on
> > > > the Internet. Commons is the biggest dysfunctional repository of
> freely
> > > > licensed material. Wikisource is where for many languages much of the
> > > books
> > > > end up (for want of new books and for the cost of publishing).
> > > >
> > > > Really. If projects like Wikidata and Commons received proper
> attention
> > > to
> > > > give them the credit they are due, they would improve exponentially
> > while
> > > > more attention to Wikipedia only improves things marginally.
> > > >
> > > > People who are one track ponies about Wikipedia are in fact clueless.
> > > They
> > > > forget about what we stand for; sharing the sum of all knowledge.
> That
> > > sum
> > > > of all knowledge is better represented in both Commons and Wikidata.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >       GerardM
> > > >
> > > > On 25 February 2016 at 07:17, Anthony Cole <ahcole...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > True, Gerard. I'm pretty sure the encyclopaedia is the only
> > successful
> > > > > Wikimedia project though, isn't it? I suppose Wikidata will be a
> > > success
> > > > > one day but, for the moment, it's the encyclopaedia that the world
> > > loves,
> > > > > it's the encyclopaedia that raises the income, it's the
> encyclopaedia
> > > > that
> > > > > is spreading the knowledge. On those measures - public awareness
> and
> > > > > affection, income-generation, and knowledge-dissemination, all the
> > > other
> > > > > entities are less than a drop in the ocean compared to Wikipedia.
> > > > >
> > > > > The people in these cottage industries that have grown up around
> this
> > > > host
> > > > > - chapters, WMF, sister-projects - too often lose sight of the fact
> > > that
> > > > > all of them have yet to prove they have had any significant
> > measurable
> > > > > impact on the distribution of knowledge.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, forgive me if I sometimes forget to include them in my
> thinking.
> > > > >
> > > > > Anthony Cole
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 1:31 PM, Gerard Meijssen <
> > > > > gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > > We are not an encyclopaedia. It is only one of our products. It
> is
> > > only
> > > > > one
> > > > > > way whereby we provide content. By insisting on being focused on
> > that
> > > > > part
> > > > > > of what we do, we do an injustice to everything else.
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > >         GerardM
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 25 February 2016 at 04:01, Anthony Cole <ahcole...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > WMF is a technology company. We are an encyclopaedia, an
> > > educational
> > > > > > > institution. We need them like I need a mechanic to keep my car
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > > > road. That they have control of the encyclopaedia's budget is
> an
> > > > > > absurdity.
> > > > > > > The donors want to donate to (and think they are donating to)
> the
> > > > > > builders
> > > > > > > of an encyclopaedia, not the tech guy that maintains our
> laptops.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your model - essentially taking over the WMF by turning it
> into a
> > > > > > > membership organisation, and then into something that
> represents
> > > the
> > > > > aims
> > > > > > > of encyclopaedia-makers - would have the same result as
> starting
> > a
> > > > > > > membership organisation de novo, except for two things.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1. I really like the idea of outsourcing our tech needs, so we
> > can
> > > > swap
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > new servers and a new tech team when we get fed up with the
> > service
> > > > > being
> > > > > > > provided by the WMF.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2. Millions of dollars already sitting in the WMF's bank
> > accounts.
> > > > > > > Following the model proposed by Denny would leave a fairly
> > ordinary
> > > > > tech
> > > > > > > contractor with bulging coffers. It would be nice to be able to
> > > take
> > > > > most
> > > > > > > of that with us, should we choose to change tech contractors.
> > > > Hopefully
> > > > > > we
> > > > > > > could publicly shame them into handing it over.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > George, the WMF, particularly under the Sue/Erik regime - but
> as
> > > best
> > > > > as
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > can tell from its very beginning - has had a propensity to
> > > privilege
> > > > > its
> > > > > > > view of what's best over the community's view. Superprotect.
> > Visual
> > > > > > editor.
> > > > > > > When the community has pushed back at WMF behaviour that suits
> > the
> > > > WMF,
> > > > > > > that the WMF thinks helps them in their mission, the WMF has
> > > > > historically
> > > > > > > just gone ahead and ignored what the community sees as being in
> > the
> > > > > > > encyclopaedia's best interest. This bunch of tech geeks and
> > silicon
> > > > > > valley
> > > > > > > entrepreneurs holds the whip hand in this relationship. It
> really
> > > > > should
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > the other way round. Denny's model; Sarah's model. I don't
> really
> > > > care.
> > > > > > But
> > > > > > > this tail-wagging-dog thing is just not right.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Anthony Cole
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 10:17 AM, Anthony Cole <
> > > ahcole...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sarah, I'd prefer to see the "keeping the servers running"
> role
> > > > > > > completely
> > > > > > > > separate from the community. As an organised community, if we
> > > > become
> > > > > > > > dissatisfied with the service being provided by the WMF, we
> > could
> > > > > just
> > > > > > > sack
> > > > > > > > them (or not renew their contract) and take on a new
> > > infrastructure
> > > > > > > > contractor to "keep the servers running." Organised, we - the
> > > > people
> > > > > > who
> > > > > > > > actually created this thing and actively maintain it - could
> > set
> > > > the
> > > > > > > course
> > > > > > > > for its development.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Anthony Cole
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Anthony Cole <
> > > > ahcole...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> Sarah, if the volunteer community was organised and had its
> > own,
> > > > > > > >> functional representative body that had the community's
> trust
> > > and
> > > > > > > respect,
> > > > > > > >> that would, to some degree, correct the present asymmetry
> > > between
> > > > us
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >> the WMF.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Our only rights in relation to them are to fork or leave.
> > While
> > > we
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > >> atomised, the latter is our only option. Organised, forking
> > > > becomes
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > >> serious possibility. Of course, I hope it never comes to
> that.
> > > But
> > > > > > > without
> > > > > > > >> that possibility, we are in the position of just having to
> > take
> > > > > > whatever
> > > > > > > >> from the WMF - good and bad.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Anthony Cole
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 9:47 AM, SarahSV <
> > > sarahsv.w...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 6:23 PM, Denny Vrandecic <
> > > > > > > >>> dvrande...@wikimedia.org>
> > > > > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> > To make a few things about the Board of Trustees clear -
> > > things
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > >>> will
> > > > > > > >>> > be true now matter how much you reorganize it:
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> > - the Board members have duties of care and loyalty to
> the
> > > > > > Foundation
> > > > > > > >>> - not
> > > > > > > >>> > to the movement.
> > > > > > > >>> >
> > > > > > > >>> > ​Hi Denny,
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> Blue Avocado, the non-profit magazine, offers a somewhat
> > > > different
> > > > > > > view.
> > > > > > > >>> They have published a board-member "contract" to give
> > > non-profit
> > > > > > > >>> directors
> > > > > > > >>> an idea of what's expected of them. It includes:
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> ​
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> ​"... ​
> > > > > > > >>> I will interpret our constituencies' needs and values to
> the
> > > > > > > >>> organization,
> > > > > > > >>> speak out for their interests, and on their behalf, hold
> the
> > > > > > > organization
> > > > > > > >>> accountable.
> > > > > > > >>> ​" [1]
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> Sarah
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> [1]
> http://www.blueavocado.org/content/board-member-contract
> > > > > > > >>> ​
> > > > > > > >>> _______________________________________________
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> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >
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