Brion, are you aware of any WMF tech work aimed specifically at helping
large for-profits engage with our projects? Andreas mentioned a
side-project for Amazon.
Regardless of specific instances, in principle, would that be a reasonable
place to invest general donation revenue, or should we get the for-profits
to fund such work if it arises?
On Monday, 29 February 2016, Brion Vibber <bvib...@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> On Sunday, February 28, 2016, Andreas Kolbe <jayen...@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>
> > Jimmy,
> >
> > I think the first step is for the Foundation to be more open and
> > transparent about what work it is actually doing for commercial re-users,
> > and to announce such work proactively to both donors and the community.
> > There should be a dedicated space where such information is collected and
> > available to the public. Major developments should be announced on the
> > Wikimedia blog.
> >
> > If some engineering team does work *specifically* for Amazon Kindle,
> Amazon
> > Echo, Google Play, Siri etc., then in my view the companies concerned
> > should pay for that work, or the work should be left to a for-profit
> > contractor. It should not be paid for by donors.
>
>
> What non-hypothetical work are you referring to?
>
> {{cn}}
>
> -- brion
>
>
> > Donors do not give money to the Foundation so it can flood the knowledge
> > market with a free product that a handful of companies then earn billions
> > from.
> >
> > As for API use, if there are *generic* APIs that multiple commercial
> > re-users can benefit from, then they should be charged according to their
> > usage, with small users operating below a certain threshold being exempt
> > from payment.
> >
> > Lastly, we should not seek world domination. :) It's unhealthy,
> especially
> > in the world of information and knowledge. Prices should be high enough
> > that some competition is possible.
> >
> > Andreas
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 5:32 PM, Jimmy Wales <jimmywa...@ymail.com
> <javascript:;>
> > <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > On the very specific topic of donor funding going to help commercial
> > > re-users, we've had some interesting but inconclusive board discussions
> > > about this topic. Despite that he takes every opportunity to attack
> me,
> > > and surely it will disappoint him to know, but my general view is 100%
> > > in agreement with him on the core issue - where commercial re-users are
> > > getting enormous value from our work, they should be paying for the
> > > engineering resources required for their support.
> > >
> > > Here are two push-backs on the idea that I do think are deserving of
> > > serious consideration:
> > >
> > > 1. Part of our core mission as a community is free access - will a "pay
> > > for service" model for APIs for commercial re-users alienate a
> > > significant portion of the community? Does requiring some to pay while
> > > others get it free raise questions similar to those around "net
> > > neutrality"?
> > >
> > > As a historical footnote, there was a deal many years ago with
> > > Answers.com to give them access to an API which they used to present
> our
> > > content alongside many other resources. They paid for that - not a
> huge
> > > amount, but it was meaningful back in those days. I don't recall this
> > > being particularly controversial.
> > >
> > > 2. In many cases it may be too simplistic to simply say "a company is
> > > benefiting, so they should pay". The point is that *we* also benefit,
> > > from increased readership for example, from our work making it to end
> > > users as technology changes and as the way people get information
> > > changes. There is certainly a situation where setting too high a price
> > > would simply push commercial re-users to not use our content at all, so
> > > sensible pricing would be key. And with real serious ongoing analysis,
> > > the right price could still be "free" even if we in principle charge.
> > >
> > > ----
> > >
> > > For me, despite those being real concerns, I come down firmly on the
> > > side of being careful about falling into a trap of doing lots of
> > > expensive work for commercial re-users without having them pay. I
> don't
> > > actually think we do a lot of that right now. What I'd like to see is
> > > more of it, and I'm pretty agnostic about whether that's in the form of
> > > "self-financing cottage industries" or a "separate for-profit arm" or
> > > within the current engineering organization. I can see arguments for
> > > any of those.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2/28/16 8:02 AM, Andreas Kolbe wrote:
> > > > On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 3:24 PM, Dariusz Jemielniak <
> dar...@alk.edu.pl <javascript:;>
> > <javascript:;>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > We COULD outsource most of our tech (I'm not supporting this, I'm
> just
> > > >> giving perspective).
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > One thing I've been wondering about of late is how much donor-funded
> > the
> > > > work the WMF is doing that is primarily designed to support
> commercial
> > > > re-users.
> > > >
> > > > The other day, I read an Engineering report on the Wikimedia blog
> that
> > > > spoke of the Wikipedia Zero team doing "side project" work for Amazon
> > > > Kindle and Google Play.
> > > >
> > > > I was thinking, Why are donors paying for that? – especially at a
> time
> > > when
> > > > the Foundation worries about being able to sustain fundraising
> growth.
> > > >
> > > > Wikimedia content is worth billions. Wikidata in particular has huge
> > > > potential value for commercial re-users.[1] So have the link-ups
> > between
> > > > Wikipedia and Amazon, Google, Bing etc.
> > > >
> > > > It's clear that even in 2008, the Foundation was inundated with
> > "multiple
> > > > product-specific pitches" from Google.[2] I imagine the breadth and
> > > number
> > > > of these pitches from Silicon Valley companies can only have
> increased
> > > > since then.
> > > >
> > > > Sure, Wikimedia is committed to using its donated funds to make
> content
> > > > freely available under an open licence, but does that mean donors
> > should
> > > > also be paying for programming work that is primarily designed to
> > support
> > > > commercial re-users?
> > > >
> > > > That work could be done by self-financing cottage industries built up
> > by
> > > > Wikimedians, working for profit, or even a for-profit arm of the
> > > > Foundation. All the Foundation would have to do would be to provide
> > basic
> > > > documentation; the rest could be left to the open market.
> > > >
> > > > The astonishing thing to me is that there seems to be very little or
> no
> > > > publicity and transparency from the WMF about developments in this
> > area.
> > > > For instance, I was unable to find any WMF communication about
> > Wikipedia
> > > > Smart Lookup being integrated in the Amazon Kindle (something Amazon
> > > > announced in 2014),[3] even though WMF teams clearly have done
> > > programming
> > > > work on this. You'd have thought having Wikipedia search embedded in
> a
> > > > major product like the Kindle is a big thing, worthy of a
> > > community-facing
> > > > announcement?
> > > >
> > > > In short, I think the WMF should collate and publicise more
> information
> > > > about commercial re-use applications, and be transparent about the
> work
> > > > it's doing to support such re-use. Maybe there is another
> "transparency
> > > > gap" here.[4]
> > > >
> > > > And if there is any work that the Foundation is currently doing that
> > > > primarily benefits commercial re-users, then I think it should stop
> > doing
> > > > that for free (= at donors' expense), and allow for-profit
> contractors
> > to
> > > > spring up and pitch for that work. That would allow the non-profit
> > > > foundation to focus on user-facing improvements.
> > > >
> > > > Andreas
> > > >
> > > > [1]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/25/wikidata_turns_the_world_into_a_database/
> > > > [2] See Sue Gardner's email quoted on the last two pages of
> > > > http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/sandberg.pdf
> > > > [3]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/forums/kindleqna/ref=cs_hc_k_m_oldest?ie=UTF8&forumID=Fx1FI6JDSFEQQ7V&cdThread=Tx27IU7Z5IQJV2J&cdSort=oldest
> > > > [4]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Foundation_transparency_gap#Transparency_about_donor-funded_work_supporting_commercial_re-users
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