Oliver

I have also been in the movement for over a decade, and I am sick of
people on all sides distorting facts, gaming the system / manipulating
the community.

IMO, this came to a boil  in Dec 2006 when WMF altered its structure
and purpose and relocated followed by the "COO scandal" [1] and other
things.

I'm glad that community people are now revisiting those early days and
trying to figger out how it all happened so secretly and without a
whimper from the community reps on the BoT  who we entrusted to
protect our stake in our work,and who let us down very badly.

David

[1] http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/12/13/wikimedia_coo_convicted_felon/

On 3/10/16, Oliver Keyes <ironho...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've been in the Wikimedia movement for over a decade now. I've seen
> Wikimedia-l. I've seen internal-l. I've had death and sexual assault
> threats show up in my inbox. And this, /this/, is genuinely the most
> horrified I've ever been by any message I've seen yet.
>
> This email is not a good faith email. it is not, despite the
> neutrality of its language, a civil email. It's the kind of blinkered,
> detached, ultrarationalist gaslighting[0] I associate with people in
> LessWrong.[1]
>
> No assumption of good faith. No discussion of the issues. No admission
> that different people can legitimately and normally interpret things
> in different ways. The framing of things so that the options are that
> James is a liar, stupid, or suffering from PTSD. Whether deliberately
> or not, it is deeply manipulative and frames the entire discussion
> with assertions that James is disconnected from reality.
>
> Jimmy, if this is genuinely how you are comfortable behaving,
> intentionally, and if
> this is the standard that you wish to set, I would ask you to do it in
> a new community. Resign from the Board. Abrogate your status as a
> founder. Go create these standards somewhere new, with people who have
> signed up for them.
>
> And if you instead don't understand why this
> sort of message is chilling and terrifying and incredibly problematic,
> you need to step back from all of these discussions for a time and go
> find someone who wants to explain it to you. Because this is not
> productive, and this is not how leaders behave. I appreciate you think
> you *have* to participate as some kind of movement moral compass, but,
> you aren't, and you don't. And even if you did, the morality
> demonstrated by that email is, I suspect, not something any of us want
> a part of.
>
> [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
> [1] for other examples of this kind of language, and the thing my
> brain immediately jumped to, see how ultrarationalists deal with
> people asking if individuals could please stop harassing them for
> disagreeing with an idea
> http://lesswrong.com/lw/lb3/breaking_the_vicious_cycle/bnrr
>
> On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 7:56 PM, Pete Forsyth <petefors...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Below is a message Jimmy Wales sent to James Heilman and myself on Feb.
>> 29.
>> I mentioned the existence of this message on the list on March 2:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-March/082901.html
>>
>> I feel this message can provide important insight into the dynamics
>> surrounding James H.'s dismissal, and various people have expressed
>> interest in seeing it, so I'm forwarding it to the list. (For what it's
>> worth, I did check with James H.; he had no objection to my sharing it.)
>>
>> For context, as I understand it, Jimmy's message was more or less in
>> response to this list message of mine:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2016-February/082764.html
>>
>> -Pete
>> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>
>> *From: *Jimmy Wales
>>
>> *Date: *February 29, 2016 6:21:46 AM
>>
>> *To: *Pete Forsyth,James Heilman
>>
>> *Subject: **A conversation?*
>>
>>
>> James, I wonder if you'd be up for a one on one conversation. I've been
>> struck in a positive way by some of the things that Pete has said and I
>> realize that moving things forward on wikimedia-l, being sniped at by
>> people who are as interested in creating drama as anything else, isn't
>> really conducive to reaching more understanding.
>>
>> I have some questions for you - real, sincere, and puzzled questions.
>> Some of the things that you have said strike me as very obviously out of
>> line with the facts. And I wonder how to reconcile that.
>>
>> One hypothesis is that you're just a liar. I have a hard time with that
>> one.
>>
>> Another hypothesis is that you have a poor memory or low emotional
>> intelligence or something like that - you seem to say things that just
>> don't make sense and which attempt to lead people to conclusions that
>> are clearly not true.
>>
>> Another hypothesis is that the emotional trauma of all this has colored
>> your perceptions on certain details.
>>
>> As an example, and I'm not going to dig up the exact quotes, you said
>> publicly that you wrote to me in October that we were building a
>> Google-competing search engine and that I more or less said that I'm
>> fine with it. Go back and read our exchange. There's just now way to
>> get that from what I said - Indeed, I specifically said that we are NOT
>> building a Google-competing search engine, and explained the much lower
>> and much less complex ambition of improving search and discovery.
>>
>> As another example, you published a timeline starting with Wikia Search.
>> It's really hard for me to interpret that in any other way than to try
>> to lead people down the path of the conspiracy theorists that I had a
>> pet project to compete with Google which led to a secret project to
>> biuld a search engine, etc. etc. You know as well as I do that's a
>> false narrative, so it's very hard for me to charitably interpret that.
>>
>> Anyway these are the kinds of things that I struggle with.
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