Hoi,
What you say is how it works for you. At the same time you deny how it is
experienced by others. I do not want your compassion. What I want is for
people to use logic in their arguments and use their logic carefully.

In a previous mail you said that you think I consider people dogs that have
to do my bidding. I was deeply offended by that. This makes you as far as I
am concerned the wrong person to tell me what to do and the last person I
care to hear from.

When you "suffer together with", it is not you who does the suffering, it
is the other. What we need is no suffering but listening to the points that
are made and addressing those. As long as you mistake the delivery for the
message you fail.
Thanks,
      GerardM

On 8 July 2016 at 11:23, Delphine Ménard <notafi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I disagree in so many ways with your words that I don't even know
> where to start. Compassion is not trying to put people in a lower
> position, or trying to put yourself in a higher position. It never has
> and never will be. Compassion is about caring for others and in that
> particular instance, making sure you get your point across. Wiktionary
> says it all: "Etymology: From Middle English, from Old French, from
> Late Latin compassio ‎(“sympathy”), from compati, past participle
> compassus ‎(“to suffer together with”), from Latin com- ‎(“together”)
> + pati ‎(“to suffer”); see passion."
>
> I do not know any world where compassion is a bad thing. And as a
> French living in Germany and working every day in English, I can tell
> you that the article Nick pointed to has excellent tips to make sure
> that people around you understand you, and ensure that communication
> happens in the best possible way.  The choice of words DOES matter.
>
> And your point "Listening, understanding is where we have a problem"
> is probably true on many levels. And if it is, I'd find it interesting
> if you considered taking a piece of your own advice and reflected on
> the way you address the people on this list.
>
> Best,
>
> Delphine
>
> On 7 July 2016 at 10:00, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hoi,
> > You forget the other part that is so vital. Compassion is for the weak,
> it
> > puts you in a superior position. The problem is much more in the
> > understanding of what someone else has to say. It is not only about
> > sending, it is as much about receiving. Listening, understanding is where
> > we have a problem. Not so much in the choice of words.
> > Thanks,
> >        GerardM
> >
> > On 7 July 2016 at 09:50, Michael Jahn <michael.j...@wikimedia.de> wrote:
> >
> >> "it is not so much
> >> the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made and
> >> how they challenge the status quo."
> >>
> >> --> This may be true, and what we should strive for as a movement. But
> you
> >> still need words to make those points, and while one may fail to
> understand
> >> what points are being made, even if all the words are understood
> properly,
> >> the opposite makes the difference. If you _don't_ understand the words
> in
> >> the first place, i. e. attribute a different meaning than the
> >> speaker/author had intended, you _cannot_ be in a position to understand
> >> the points.
> >> So, thanks Nick, for sharing! I like your post very much.
> >> Michael
> >> Am 07.07.2016 9:35 vorm. schrieb "Gerard Meijssen" <
> >> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>:
> >>
> >> > Hoi,
> >> > I have been thinking about what you say. The problem I see is that
> your
> >> > attitude is one where you have to be compassionate for the benefit of
> >> > people for whom English is a second language. What this means is that
> you
> >> > see yourself as superior because your English is so great and they
> have a
> >> > problem with English or Anglo culture.The logical conclusion is
> probably
> >> > that English and Angloism has to be central to what we do.
> >> >
> >> > This is the Wikimedia list and when you follow this list, it is people
> >> from
> >> > all over the world that subscribe and comment. It is highly biased by
> >> group
> >> > think and I have observed that there is little willingness to consider
> >> > notions that do not fit in well with the group think.The biggest
> problem
> >> in
> >> > this is not language but an unwillingness to consider arguments.
> >> >
> >> > It is easy to say "we have to be compassionate" and because of that we
> >> have
> >> > to choose our words well. It is tough to consider that it is not so
> much
> >> > the words that are used but it is understanding what points are made
> and
> >> > how they challenge the status quo.
> >> > Thanks,
> >> >       GerardM
> >> >
> >> > On 5 July 2016 at 21:59, Nick Wilson (Quiddity) <
> nwil...@wikimedia.org>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> https://medium.com/@mollyclare/taming-the-steamroller-how-to-communicate-compassionately-with-non-native-english-speakers-d95d8d1845a0
> >> > > A good essay.
> >> > >
> >> > > TL;DR: Some detailed examples of how to improve communication and
> >> > > interactions, for the benefit of anyone who uses English as a second
> >> > > language.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Excerpts, to whet [sharpen or stimulate] your appetite:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Phrasal verbs in English can be particularly hard to master. Just
> >> think
> >> > > about “cut off” vs. “cut up” vs. “cut over” vs. “cut in” vs. “cut
> out”
> >> > vs.
> >> > > “cut down” vs. “cut back” and you’ll see how confusing it can be
> when
> >> you
> >> > > recommend “cutting back” on something, or asking someone to “cut it
> >> out”.
> >> > > [...]
> >> > >
> >> > > > Make your message very clear, especially your request. This is
> doubly
> >> > > true for me, because I work with Germans, who are famously direct.
> The
> >> > > American habit of softening and burying a request is just confusing
> and
> >> > > pointless to them.
> >> > >
> >> > > > The last thing you and I want to do is overwhelm. We work across
> >> > language
> >> > > barriers, not because it’s glamorous or fun or easy, but because we
> >> care
> >> > > about collaborating with people who are different from us [...]. And
> >> > > non-native speakers are committing to this collaboration even more
> than
> >> > we
> >> > > are: they’re reaching out to us by working in English. [...]
> >> > >
> >> > > n.b. Yes, there are some over-generalizations and stereotypes in
> there.
> >> > > It's still good overall, though! ;-)
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > I'd like to link it on Metawiki, but I'm not sure where; Any
> >> suggestions?
> >> > > I've gotten (happily) lost in the [[Multilingual]] disambig page,
> and
> >> the
> >> > > [[Grants:Learning patterns]] pages, but the only place I can find
> that
> >> > > collects advice like this, is the first section at
> >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech/News/Manual#Guidelines - What
> >> page
> >> > > might I have missed?
> >> > >
> >> > > Quiddity
> >> > > _______________________________________________
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