I really appreciate the thoughtful detail in this thread.  Thanks, Scott.

Multi-content revisions are a really good idea and the level of public
discussion seemed fitting.

> If we clean up a seldom-used corner case in the wikitext
> specification, is that still "wikitext"?  If we replace wikitext templates
> with Scribunto templates is it still "wikitext"?  If we change boldface to
> {'' ... ''} instead of triple-quotes, is that still wikitext?

Yes ...

> in addition to the "engineering should build what the community wants"
direction,
> we need to also build the "community should embrace changes arising from
WMF
> efforts to evolve the platform" direction.  The necessary balance and
interplay
> between these factors has been missing

Fair enough.


On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 5:55 PM, C. Scott Ananian <canan...@wikimedia.org>
wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 5:08 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <domedonf...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I have
> > explicitly asked where plans for the future of the editors and the parsr
> > unification project can be seen, and there has simply been no response.
> Do
> > those plans exist?  If so, where are they, and why are they not being
> > shared wth the community.  If not, why and how is any work proceeding,
> and
> > what process will be used to developt those plans, and in particular,
> hwow
> > will the community be involved?  These are not questions of idle
> curiosity
> > for one particular user's satisfaction, they issues requiring clear and
> > public articuation as key components of any successful future staraegy to
> > avoid the disastrous mistakes of the past.
> >
>
> In the past two years:
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Developer_
> Summit/2017/Handling_wiki_content_beyond_plaintext
> (coming up!)
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Parsing
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Parsing/Replacing_Tidy
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Parsing/Replacing_Tidy/FAQ
> https://wikimania2015.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Templates_are_
> dead!_Long_live_templates
> !
> https://wikimania2015.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Mediawiki_without_
> wikitext
> https://wikimania2015.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Wikitext_is_
> broken,_long_live_wikitext_(2.0)
>
> Fifthly I note that there have been repeated assurances over time that the
> > content of the databases will continue to be wikitext, and that wikitext
> > will be directly editable, at least for the foreseeable future.  Those
> > assurances came from people who oight to know and who appeared to be
> > speaking on behalf of, and with the authority of the WMF.  The comments
> > made by Scott do not entirely support those assurances.
> >
>
> The "assurances" are not as black-and-white as you seem to think.  There
> are a number of ways to translate on-the-fly between alternative
> representations and wikitext, as well as some debate about what "wikitext"
> actually is.  If we clean up a seldom-used corner case in the wikitext
> specification, is that still "wikitext"?  If we replace wikitext templates
> with Scribunto templates is it still "wikitext"?  If we change boldface to
> {'' ... ''} instead of triple-quotes, is that still wikitext?  Etc.
> Further, see:
>
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multi-Content_Revisions
>
> for broader context on the backend changes, which will make it possible to
> store multiple equivalent representations of any of our content ("legacy
> wikitext", "wikitext 2.0", "HTML", etc), and translate on-the-fly
> back-and-forth between them.  We currently do this for Flow, for example,
> where the "in database" representation is HTML, even if you are editing it
> in "wikitext".  So there are lots of ways to tweak the dials to always
> allow "wikitext editing" -- which, indeed, is under no attack.  (Our
> archives, however, are currently in quite a perilous state due to the
> currently-underspecified nature of "wikitext".)
>
> Multi-Content Revisions has been through a public RFC process:
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T107595
>
> Indeed, the short answer to your question about process would be,
> "Wikimania", "Developer Summit", and "Architecture Committee" (
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Architecture_committee).  It is rare that
> any substantial project at WMF hasn't been through all three of those
> public forums, and records of each are posted for the benefit of those who
> can't attend.  (Although this year at Esino Lario the public process
> determined that the Wikimania attendees didn't actually want to have
> parsing- or wikitext-related technical discussions, and so instead I
> participated in a public hackathon for offline functionality organized by
> the Kiwix community.  I surveyed attendees however and everyone I talked to
> indicated that WMF staff was adequately represented and no one reported any
> trouble finding staff members to answer questions.)
>  --scott, [[User:cscott]]
>
> --
> (http://cscott.net)
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-- 
Samuel Klein          @metasj          w:user:sj          +1 617 529 4266
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