On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 9:14 PM, Pete Forsyth <petefors...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Anna,
>
> I've now read what you quoted for a third time, and can confirm I did
> understand, and agree with, what you said. I'm sorry my summary was
> inadequate, and may have made it seem otherwise.
>
> As for planning, I am not making assumptions, but perhaps interpreting
> differently from you. I'm happy to defer to Pine on the details; their
> recent message captures the gist of what I intended.
>
> I can't give a solid estimate of the "half-life," but I do not think the
> enthusiasm I've seen (and the metrics I cited in my initial message on this
> thread) constitute a passing crush. I do think a "pause" that necessitates
> addressing uncertainty when discussing popular features can have a
> significant impact, and therefore should be minimized to whatever degree is
> attainable. I could be wrong, but that's my belief.
>

Got it.  (I add color so I can see. I think I need better glasses. Sad!).

>
> As for the request for more time, I guess I'm just not sure what to make
> of it. I make no demands, and I'm not sure I've heard Pine, James, DJ, or
> anybody in this thread make demands. Is there somebody with standing to
> grant such a request? I've heard it, and it makes sense. It's worthwhile to
> know that the team needs more time, and plans to share more on a scale that
> sounds like days-to-weeks. But if there's something specific being asked of
> me (or others on this list), I'm not clear on what it is.
>

I was just asking whether you thought it was reasonable to give them the
time that they asked for.  It wasn't a governance question, or a discussion
about authority. I was just asking if those who commented, who all seemed
to have legitimate concerns, were willing to have the team get back to them
with any answers that they could fairly, justly, respectfully and legally
provide, but more likely they would talk about the future work.

In my mind I've been clear and consistent: "Hey, do you guys think it is
reasonable to give these guys some time?" But it seems like I've not made
this point clear. Would singing it at karaoke help?

>
> I'd be happy to chat if you come back to it at the end of Q3, if you'd
> like.
>

Thanks. I'll reach out.

>
> -Pete
>
> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>
>
>
> On 01/25/2017 06:38 PM, Anna Stillwell wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Pete Forsyth <petefors...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Anna,
>>>
>>> Pete,
>>
>> Your points are valid and well taken. If I may summarize what I think I
>>> heard, it's basically: "Getting things right can be hard, and if full
>>> preparations weren't made ahead of time, thorough answers may not be
>>> readily available. Be compassionate/patient." Is that about right?
>>>
>>
>> I appreciate that you are trying to understand what I mean. Thanks.
>>
>> No, I didn’t say getting things right can be hard. I said, “This
>> communication thing is hard, especially when people are involved.
>> Sometimes
>> there are laws that constrain what we say. Sometimes we don’t know whether
>> we are right yet and we need a further unpacking of the facts. The truth
>> is
>> that there can be a whole host of reasons for partial communication that
>> aren’t related to competence or the intent to deceive.”
>>
>> As for the preparations, it seems that a lot of assumptions are being
>> made.
>> As for thorough answers, some might already be known and others known once
>> more planning is completed. However, it could be that the explanations you
>> want are not legal to share. There are many issues where employment law
>> and
>> worker protections are crystal clear, as they should be.
>>
>> As for compassion, I don’t require it. That seems like extra to me. I
>> usually prefer just paying attention, but that’s my personal choice.
>>
>> The team asked for some time. I wondered if that would be a reasonable
>> request to grant them.
>>
>> If so, I agree in principle and in spirit, but I think the point is in
>>
>>> tension with
>>> another one:
>>>
>>> Community and public enthusiasm for software can be a rare and important
>>> thing. The conditions that make it grow, shrink, or sustain are complex,
>>> and largely beyond the influence of a handful of mailing list
>>> participants.
>>> The recent outputs of the Interactive Team have generated enthusiasm in a
>>> number of venues, and many on this list (both volunteers and staff) would
>>> like to see it grow or sustain, and perhaps throw a little weight behind
>>> an
>>> effort to make it grow or sustain.
>>>
>>> Good points. I mean that. Glad to hear of these recent outputs generate
>> excitement. I’m personally also getting quite excited about ORES
>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Objective_Revision_Evaluation_Service>
>> and
>>
>> what’s going on with the Community Tech Wish List, Labs, and New Readers.
>> But I also get that you want to be clear: you'd like to see the
>> interactive
>> team’s work grow or sustain. Makes sense.
>>
>> The only thing I heard is that the team said that they needed to pause,
>> have a bit of time, and get back to everybody. “The team's aim during this
>> period is to get its work to a stable and maintainable state.”
>>
>> But that enthusiasm has a half-life. What is possible today may not be
>>> possible next week or next month. The zeitgeist may have evolved or moved
>>> on by then.
>>>
>>> I'm not in disagreement with your main point about enthusiasm for
>> software.
>> I think it's a very good one. Enthusiasm with a half life of a week,
>> however, sounds more like a passing crush. Nevertheless, your point still
>> stands.
>>
>> -Pete
>>> --
>>> [[User:Peteforsyth]]
>>>
>>> /a
>> [[User:Annaproject]]
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 3:53 PM, Anna Stillwell <astillw...@wikimedia.org
>>> >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> You make substantive points, Tim. Thank you.
>>>>
>>>> "An employee should not experience their time off as a period where his
>>>> [her/they] work load is just temporarily buffered until his [her/they]
>>>> return, but where colleagues will step in and take care of business."
>>>>
>>>> I take this point seriously and don't wish you to think otherwise. In
>>>> theory, I absolutely agree. In practice, sometimes we all face
>>>>
>>> constraints.
>>>
>>>> There are roughly 300 of us (order of magnitude). Every now and then,
>>>>
>>> there
>>>
>>>> are not enough of us to go around on everything on a timeline that meets
>>>> the legitimate need that you present here. We'll continue to work on
>>>>
>>> this.
>>>
>>>> But, to clarify, no one ever said it was a "useful practice" nor did
>>>>
>>> anyone
>>>
>>>> suggest that it was generalized across the org.
>>>>
>>>> What I was wondering about in my previous email and now reiterating in
>>>>
>>> this
>>>
>>>> one too, are people willing to grant their request: a bit of time and
>>>>
>>> allow
>>>
>>>> for one person to return to work?
>>>>
>>>> Does that seem like a way to move forward?
>>>>
>>>> Warmly,
>>>> /a
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 2:50 PM, Tim Landscheidt <
>>>> t...@tim-landscheidt.de
>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Anna Stillwell <astillw...@wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> […]
>>>>>> I also hear that the pause on the interactive work is temporary. I’ve
>>>>>>
>>>>> heard
>>>>>
>>>>>> them request time. I am comfortable granting that request, but no one
>>>>>>
>>>>> is
>>>>
>>>>> required to agree with me. They’ve also said that the person with the
>>>>>>
>>>>> most
>>>>>
>>>>>> information is on vacation. As someone who has seen employees go
>>>>>>
>>>>> through
>>>>
>>>>> considerable stress in the last years, the entire executive team is
>>>>>>
>>>>> working
>>>>>
>>>>>> to establish some cultural standards around supporting vacations. We
>>>>>>
>>>>> want
>>>>
>>>>> people here to feel comfortable taking proper vacations and sometimes
>>>>>>
>>>>> that
>>>>>
>>>>>> can even need to happen in a crisis. People often plan their
>>>>>>
>>>>> vacations
>>>
>>>> well
>>>>>
>>>>>> in advance and may not know that something tricky will come up. Just
>>>>>>
>>>>> so
>>>
>>>> you
>>>>>
>>>>>> understand one bias I bring to this conversation.
>>>>>> […]
>>>>>>
>>>>> I concur with DJ in his initial mail that this is not a use-
>>>>> ful practice, and I doubt very much that it relieves employ-
>>>>> ees' stress.  It conveys the organizational expectation that
>>>>> employees are SPOFs without any backup.  An employee should
>>>>> not experience their time off as a period where his work
>>>>> load is just temporarily buffered until his return, but
>>>>> where colleagues will step in and take care of business.
>>>>> Especially such a major decision like "pausing" a team
>>>>> should not depend on the inner thoughts of one employee, but
>>>>> be backed and explainable by others.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tim
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> "If you have knowledge, let others light their candles in it." -
>>>> Margaret
>>>> Fuller
>>>>
>>>> Anna Stillwell
>>>> Director of Culture
>>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>>> 415.806.1536
>>>> *www.wikimediafoundation.org <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org>*
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-- 
"If you have knowledge, let others light their candles in it." - Margaret
Fuller

Anna Stillwell
Director of Culture
Wikimedia Foundation
415.806.1536
*www.wikimediafoundation.org <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org>*
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