James and others,

The question of whether the WMF ought or ought not to have a roadmap is an
interesting one, which I enourage you to debate not with me but with Wes
Moran and the other members of the WMF leadership, for whom it is an
actionable point.

My question is addressed to that leadership, and remains: Does the WMF have
such a roadmap, and if so will they publish it?

Gerard and others,

The question of whether or not to learn from the past is also an
interesting one.  My answer to Gerard's plain questions, which were "Are
you willing to argue your case as I am willing to argue mine? Are you
willing to accept that there is more than only Wikipedia and only English?"
are respectively, "Yes, and I have done so frequently" and "Yes of course".

"Rogol"

On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 2:48 PM, James Salsman <jsals...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The Foundation doesn't have a product roadmap because new product goals are
> updated at least once a year; more often internally. A roadmap as described
> in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_roadmap is appropriate when
> long
> term plans are under centralized control and not subject to change. The WMF
> uses a variety of means to update goals frequently from all its
> stakeholders, so how would a roadmap even help?
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 7:03 AM Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> > While we are on the subject of the meaning of words, to me a road map is
> a
> > map of the road system. Something we used before we had talking GPS to
> > navigate to unfamiliar places when travelling by car.
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> > Sent: Saturday, 11 February 2017 2:55 PM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fwd: [discovery] Interactive Team putting work
> > on pause
> >
> > Hoi,
> > Rogol... the past... whose past? When you argue that we have to learn
> from
> > the past, it is good to accept current polities of a project as an
> argument
> > but such an argument has to convince us all.
> >
> > I have experience and I dispair. I find that policies that are external
> to
> > me should be accepted by me because they are said to be "universal". I am
> > not convinced by this argument at all. If you cannot present your
> arguments
> > for our mutual setting you fail, your arguments fail.
> >
> > When you use a proverb, it is dandy but by the same token, I am not a
> > collaborator because that would-be make me a Nazi (that is my cultural
> > heritage).
> >
> > My question to you is plain. Are you willing to argue your case as I am
> > willing to argue mine? Are you willing to accept that there is more than
> > only Wikipedia and only English? Are you happy to validate your
> arguments?
> > Thanks,
> >        GerardM
> >
> > Op za 11 feb. 2017 om 11:05 schreef Rogol Domedonfors <
> > domedonf...@gmail.com
> > >
> >
> > > Anna,
> > >
> > >
> > > > Sometimes I wonder if hope isn’t at the base of it all. Perhaps hope
> > > > is necessary but certainly not sufficient for it all to transpire.
> > > > Hope is
> > > not
> > > > a strategy. But maybe it's a foundation.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Certainly, but there is an old saying about "the triumph of hope over
> > > experience".  The general tenor of your comments suggest that you are
> > > less interested in learning from the past as you are planning for the
> > > future.  I merely suggest that the two go hand in hand.
> > >
> > >
> > > > [stuff]]
> > > > I don't have time to investigate this statement and work to piece
> > > together
> > > > what happened, and since I don't have that time, I will not comment
> > > > in
> > > any
> > > > way on this particular instance.
> > > >
> > >
> > > That is your decision, but it means that you will learn nothing from
> it.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Generally, I am thinking about community service training across the
> > > > organization. I would love your help with that. I can do little
> > > > about the past. I can address the future. To properly address the
> > > > future, ad hoc
> > > and
> > > > particular solution sets won't suffice. We'll need coherent and
> > > > general solution sets, with enough particulars to keep the solution
> > set honest.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I am not sure what you mean by "community service" here.  In the UK,
> > > it is a form of punishment given to young offenders for anti-social
> > > behaviour.  I assume you mean something different?
> > >
> > >
> > > >  I didn’t say that we didn’t have a Roadmap. I said that I did not
> > know.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > and extraordinarily unusual that a person at your level in the
> > > > > organisation should not know of its existence and be able to
> > > > > confirm at least whether or not it exists.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Agreed.
> > > >
> > > > One caveat: I am a Director in Talent and Culture. Please allow me
> > > > to explain. You may have noticed we’ve had some talent and culture
> > > challenges
> > > > as of late. I’m sure you can imagine how those challenges could keep
> > > > me (one of two senior leaders in a department of 10, 5 of whom are
> > > > solely dedicated to recruiting and 1 dedicated solely to employee
> > > > benefits), relatively busy. Although I agree with you in principle,
> > > > I’m just asking you to see how under those circumstances it could
> > > > make sense that a Director in T&C might not be up to date on what is
> > > > going on relative to Product Roadmaps.
> > > >
> > > > However, I am here now.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > You must be aware that your answer suggests at a bare minimum the
> > > > > possibility that you, as an officer of the WMF, are evading the
> > > question.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > That possibility genuinely never occurred to me. Evading the
> > > > question? Quite the contrary, Rogol. I have answered in the most
> > > > exposing and real way possible. I have said, "I don’t know", on a
> > > > public mailing list. Talk about a total lack of spin!  I think that
> > > > is in the Wharton-Business-School
> > > > <http://executiveeducation.wharton.upenn.edu/for-individuals
> > > > ?gclid=CMGp9YTnhtICFURqfgod_AYI_g&slx=NAM_BRAND&ef_id=WFbx
> > > > 6wAAAN1GRt7g:20170211003858:s>-what-not-to-do
> > > > manual... admit that you don't know something in public.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The underlying quesrion, as was sure you would have recognised, is not
> > > "Do you Anna Stillwell happen to know whether or not the WMF has a
> > > technical roadmap ..." but "Does the WMF have a technical roadmap and
> > > if so please will the WMF publish it."  Perhaps I failed to make that
> > > clear, and you were assuming I was asking a more personally specific
> > > but significantly less useful version.  My long-standing question,
> then,
> > remains unanswered:
> > >
> > > *Does the WMF have a technical roadmap and if so please will the WMF
> > > publish it.*
> > >
> > >
> > > > If I may be so bold, it seems that your interpretation of my words
> > > > lacks even basic faith. It seems to be the penultimate worst
> > > > possible interpretation (the worst being lying, the second...
> evading).
> > > >
> > >
> > > I can only go by what I see as a pesistent refusal to address this
> > > issue over many weeks by multiple members of the WMF staff.
> > >
> > >
> > > > But your nearly automatic interpretation may point to a deeper
> > > > issue. I hear you saying that you don't take me at my word. That you
> > > > may not take
> > > us
> > > > at our word. And I imagine that we have done some things to earn
> > > > your distrust. I hear you.
> > > >
> > > > But I assure you that I am telling you the truth now: I do not know.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Do you propose to take any steps to find out?  If you do, please will
> > > you let the community know?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Ok. How do you pronounce your fictitious name? I asked around, “Hey,
> > > > how
> > > do
> > > > you pronounce Rogol’s fictitious name”? Everyone pronounced it
> > > differently.
> > > > Some had a hard g. Some had a soft one. Some placed emphasis on the
> > > > first syllable. Some on the second.
> > > >
> > > > I couldn’t stop laughing. I said to them, “But he’s made up…. how
> > > > can you be *so sure*?”
> > > >
> > >
> > > Philippe Beaudette pronounced it acceptably it in the July 2015
> > > Metrics Meeting, see, or rather listen to,
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXWNGEht9lU&feature=youtu.be
> > >
> > > "Rogol"
> > > _______________________________________________
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