Tim Landscheidt wrote:
>This is a circular and illogical argument.  Just because
>someone has good intentions or invested time and effort does
>not mean that the path they chose is the right one to take.
>And if someone is steering towards a cliff, encouraging peo-
>ple to keep pushing the cart to honour the navigator's dedi-
>cation is self-destructive.

This is basically the <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost_fallacy>.
This also can partially explain many of the software development-related
disputes we've seen with the Wikimedia Foundation. Once a bunch of time,
energy, and other resources are devoted to a particular software project,
it becomes a lot more difficult to give it up, even if it's doomed.

Leila Zia wrote:
>​Matthew used English Wikipedia as one example to say that the statement
>"This is always the case." is not correct.​ Using English Wikipedia as an
>example to negate that statement is not in contradiction with what Matthew
>said to you on mediawiki.org.

Sure, but that wasn't the contradiction (or hypocrisy) I was discussing.
In one case, Matthew is relying on outside behavior and accepted practices
on other Wikimedia wikis (re: meatpuppetry, sockpuppetry, etc.). In the
other case, Matthew is saying outside policies and practices are
irrelevant as those policies are local to that wiki. You both are quite
smart enough to see what's happening here.

Vi to wrote:
>I think methodological objections shouldn't prevail over substantial
>objections.
>I can agree most of consensus in CoC draft came from WMF
>staffers/contractors, but:
>*no one was prevented from weighing-in
>*lists were filled with invitations to weigh-in
>*I think most of us didn't comment just because they agree with the
>overall meaning of the draft.
>IMHO most of criticism doesn't actually target the draft but rather
>increasing influence of WMF in various sectors traditionally
>community-driven or unregulated. I'm not commenting nor this influence nor
>the objections but I think CoC is just a symbol of another issue.

I'll try to summarize the latest criticisms and I'll copy them to the talk
page as well, for posterity.

Re: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct/Draft

In the most cynical outlook, this is a Wikimedia Foundation-imposed
policy. The revision history of the page and activity on the related
Phabricator tasks make this pretty clear:
<https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/P4985> and
<https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T90908>.

The draft text regarding initial committee membership reads: "The first
Committee will be chosen by the Wikimedia Foundation's Technical
Collaboration team."

As I pointed out to Pine, there's been a decent amount of discussion
regarding whether this proposed committee or this entire document can even
apply to Wikimedia Foundation staff. The Wikimedia Foundation Human
Resources and Legal teams have weighed in and seem to have attempted to
carve out an exemption for employees, since they're (probably rightfully)
concerned that this proposed policy and its committee will create HR and
Legal headaches.

When asked about specific examples that this code of conduct is attempting
to address, there has been extreme evasiveness. Problematic behavior in
technical spaces (for example, spammers in IRC channels, Phabricator, and
Gerrit) are typically quickly resolved. What is this committee intending
to work on, exactly? Getting a simple answer to that question has been
nearly impossible.

And the previous explicit agreements to have a final vote on the document
have now been changed by one side. Instead of having a final vote, Matthew
and the rest of the people pushing this document forward are trying to
claim the ability to use per-section consensus as a basis for overall
consensus, even though they specifically told people there would be a
final vote and people supported specific sections with this understanding.

Yes, it is a cynical outlook to be sure, but if you examine what's
happening here, this a proposed policy from Wikimedia Foundation staffers
that puts the Wikimedia Foundation in charge of creating a code of conduct
committee. That's already a huge red flag. Add to it that the Wikimedia
Foundation is trying to exempt itself from its own creation, can't cite
what specific problems this new policy/committee is intended to solve, and
has now reneged on previous agreements to hold a final vote, presumably
because there's a concern that a final vote would result in rejection of
this policy. Bleh.

MZMcBride



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