Excellent to see. Thanks Fae and agree this is an important initiative.

James

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:13 AM, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I am delighted to say that Wikimedia Commons is today the /first/
> project to have an official Gender-neutral language policy for its
> policies and help pages, so that the project is a welcoming
> environment for all. Thanks to everyone that took part in the
> discussions and vote!
>
> * https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Use_of_gender_
> neutral_language *
>
> The proposal was an unplanned outcome from the WM-LGBT+ user group
> taking part in this year's Wikimedia Conference in Berlin, part of all
> the creative discussions that go on when so many international
> Wikimedians get together.
>
> If you missed it, the English Wikipedia has an ongoing 'lively'
> Request for Comment for its own Gender-neutral policy for policies,
> see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
>
> Thanks
> Fae
> Wikmedia LGBT+ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT+
> https://telegram.me/wmlgbt
>
> On 8 April 2017 at 14:04, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I beg to differ with Anders final comment;
> >
> >>
> >> And our standpoint is that we as Wikipedians should not be first in
> >> introducing new use of language but wait until it has become mainstream
> (if
> >> it ever will be)
> >
> >
> > I have no issue within our policies and projects being a leader the use
> of
> > neutral language that encompasses all equally because neutrality is one
> of
> > the key pillars of the community.  We can and must do better to ensure
> that
> > everyone has the ability to contribute on an equal basis.
> >
> > If a language doesnt have a gender neutral way to express an individual
> > then we should be encouraging speakers to find alternative ways which can
> > best express our neutral position
> >
> > On 8 April 2017 at 20:32, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks for the French experience. :-) You may not have picked up on
> >> the specific comment about the French Wikipedia a few days ago in the
> >> general Wikimedia Commons Village Pump discussion:[1]
> >>
> >> "* Total Support. This is not only useful to the trans community, but
> >> in the case of French, it is more inclusive for women also, as the
> >> French (I'm writing French and this does not mean francophone) have
> >> the disastrous tendency to masculinize everything pretending this is
> >> the way the french grammar addresses "gender neutrality in French". I
> >> would really like us to reflect on writing a best practice manual for
> >> all those who want to have an inclusive language (coupled with a non
> >> violent communication guide for online practices). Actually on the
> >> French wikipedia, most pronouns are in the masculine form even on talk
> >> / user / help pages, and when one raises the issue, one gets insults
> >> and very silly remarks. --Nattes à chat"
> >>
> >> It is sad to see that the local community has difficulty staying
> >> respectful or even civil when these gender related discussions arise,
> >> and should be a welcoming and open debate about the facts for modern
> >> language usage. There are no easy solutions, apart from persisting,
> >> keeping the topic on our agenda, and gradually educating where we can,
> >> even though this gets very tiring for our best volunteers!
> >>
> >> The French Wikipedia is not alone, and I have been told over the last
> >> week of exactly the same problem of "silly comments" on the German
> >> Wikipedia, and my experience with raising a Request for Comment
> >> yesterday on the English Wikipedia[2] is that discussions on this do
> >> include critical views being expressed, which is okay, in a
> >> disrespectful way, which is definitely not okay! It's a shame that
> >> even some administrators will defend intentionally disrespectful
> >> comments as so-called "free speech", rather than a breach of our
> >> civility policies or the basic WMF terms of use for our websites.[3]
> >>
> >> P.S. Florence, your email gets automatically put in spam when using
> >> Google's email system. I'm not even sure how to stop that happening
> >> for yahoo addresses to this list.
> >>
> >> Links
> >> 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#
> >> Defaulting_to_gender_neutral_language_in_policies_and_help_pages
> >> 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/RFC_GNL
> >> 3. https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Terms_of_Use
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Fae
> >>
> >> On 7 April 2017 at 20:58, Florence Devouard <anthe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> > A couple of weeks ago, I was asked - in my capacity of meta admin - to
> >> > change the phrasing of a site notice on meta, meant to call for
> >> > participation to the month of Francophonie.
> >> >
> >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:
> >> Centralnotice-template-WikiFranca_MC17&diff=prev&oldid=16482259
> >> >
> >> > The sentence of the call in the site notice was in language neutral
> >> > terminology.
> >> >
> >> > "les Wikimédien.nes" instead of the more traditionnal but non neutral
> >> "les
> >> > Wikimédiens".
> >> >
> >> > That phrasing raised an uproar on the French pump. So I replaced the
> >> term by
> >> > "nous" (we). Seems to settle things.
> >> >
> >> > Clearly the French speaking community is not ready to adopt the gender
> >> > neutral specific language accross the francophones projects.
> Alternatives
> >> > (such as the "we") are possible but not always.
> >> >
> >> > Florence
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Le 06/04/2017 14:58, Fæ a écrit :
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks for the examples from French and I'm sure that our experienced
> >> >> translators will have in mind specific best practice guides to turn
> >> >> to. I like your illustration of "un/une adminstra-teur-trice" to show
> >> >> the challenges. The use of "singular they" remains uncomfortable for
> >> >> many English readers, but it has become a recommended standard for
> >> >> journalists writing in English.[1]
> >> >>
> >> >> Once the principle of gender neutrality is agreed, I just don't know
> >> >> what our next steps will turn out to be for non-English versions.
> >> >> However I am much encouraged by the positive views on Commons, and
> I'm
> >> >> hopeful we can, and should, find a way to set a better example for
> our
> >> >> fellow projects in our aim to feel welcoming for all contributors.
> :-)
> >> >>
> >> >> Links
> >> >> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks
> >> >> Fae
> >> >> Wikimedia LGBT+
> >> >>
> >> >> On 6 April 2017 at 12:30, Antoine Musso <hashar+...@free.fr> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Le 05/04/2017 à 12:52, Fæ a écrit :
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>   I'm taking that further by
> >> >>>> proposing that we stick to a neutral gender for all our policies
> and
> >> >>>> help pages. In practice this means that policies avoid using "he or
> >> >>>> she" and stick to "they" or avoid using a pronoun at all.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> As a non native English speaker the use of a plural form definitely
> >> >>> confuses me or at best.  The example takes a sentence from
> Commons:FAQ
> >> >>> which roughly looks like:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when his or her picture is
> used.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> With the proposal to instead:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when their picture is used.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Why isn't "picture" plural as well?  If using masculine as a neutral
> >> >>> pronoum is the issue, just stop using the pronoum entirely. Eg one
> can
> >> >>> instead write:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> A photographer has to be given credit when the picture is used.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> That is going to be quite a challenge when ported to other
> languages.
> >> >>> For 'A photographer', the english indefinite article is gender less.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> In french that would be either 'un' (masculine) or 'une' (feminine).
> >> >>> What some are advocating is using:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>    Un/une photographe
> >> >>>
> >> >>> If the noun varies as well, that becomes messy. Here for
> >> >>> 'administrateur':
> >> >>>
> >> >>>   Un/une adminstra-teur-trice
> >> >>>
> >> >>> That is not solvable in french and all other latin based languages
> most
> >> >>> probably have the same issue (blame Rome!).
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> Antoine "hashar" Musso
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> >> Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote.
> >>
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > GN.
> > President Wikimedia Australia
> > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
>
> --
> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>
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-- 
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
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