Running a "user group" is much less bureaucratic overhead. Can WMPH not
just rejoin the movement as that? When the capacity to return to chapter
status develops the group can than apply for chapter status.

James

On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 5:17 AM, Josh Lim <jamesjoshua...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> First of all, I'm not blaming anyone. I'm merely stating what is our
> position: that is, that we've been dealing with our issues to the best of
> our ability.  That said, I'm sorry, but I will not tolerate being told that
> I am "misleading" the movement by telling people what we've done to get
> ourselves out of this mess.  I wouldn't dare stake my own reputation on
> misleading the movement, and for people to presume otherwise is appalling
> for a movement that claims to work on a fundamental assumption of good
> faith.
> It's perfectly fine that we've come to opposing conclusions as to how
> compliant we are, but the facts stand that we've worked our butts off to
> return to compliance.  And we intend to do so.  If the Wikimedia
> Foundation's ideal conclusion is that non-compliant affiliates ought to
> disband entirely, then what good is the process in the first place if the
> idea is to help organizations return to compliance?
> I'll affirm that we've received a deadline notice.  I confirmed that in my
> last e-mail to this list.  The Wikimedia Foundation did give a list of
> things that we had to fix to return to compliance.  We ticked off a number
> of items from that list, and have conceded in our internal communications
> that other items can't be ticked off immediately owing to our capacity and
> asked for more time to that effect.  The decision that was ultimately made
> was for us to lose our status because not everything was met by the
> deadline, and that was DESPITE everything that we've done at WMPH to meet
> the deadline to begin with.
> So no, I will NOT tolerate being told that we did nothing to return to
> compliance, and by no less than the chair of the Affiliations Committee --
> who otherwise I have a deep respect for -- in fact.  At the very least,
> there has to be a concession that we tried.  I have not heard that from the
> other side thus far, and I'm here to make sure that people know that we in
> fact DID try to return to compliance.
> Thanks,
> Josh
> (P.S.: For those asking, PhilWiki is not affiliated with WMPH.  PhilWiki
> is a splinter group that was founded by a former member of Wikimedia
> Philippines, and is largely based in the Bicol Region in southern Luzon.
> WMPH, meanwhile, was based in Manila and had members nationwide.)
> JAMES JOSHUA G. LIM
> Block I1, AB Political Science
> Major in Global Politics, Minor in Chinese Studies
> Class of 2013, Ateneo de Manila University
> Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philippines
>
> jamesjoshua...@yahoo.com | +63 (977) 831-7582
> Facebook/Twitter: akiestar | Wikimedia: Sky Harborhttps://joshlim.me
> On Tuesday, April 25, 2017, 3:58:48 AM PDT, Ting Chen <wing.phil...@gmx.de>
> wrote:Hello Gnangarra,
>
> I joined AffCom in 2015, at that time the issue with Wikimedia
> Philippines was already on the table. The AffCom and the WMF had tried
> two years to get a settlement without a de-recognition with them.
> Meanwhile it is 2017, I don't believe Josh could resolve the problem in
> the last five hours which the entire Wikimedia Philippines was not able
> to resolve in the past two years. As I said in my other post, I
> personally don't think it wise to withhold information, especially
> obviously the people who would be "protected" don't appreciate being
> protected. But actually on the decision itself if there is something the
> AffCom is to be blamed, it is that it took them two years of time to
> make that hard decision. It was overdue, actually.
>
> Greetings
>
> Ting
>
>
> Am 25.04.2017 um 11:43 schrieb Gnangarra:
> > In the original email from Josh he raises some points about still working
> > to address the issues in the five hours between his email and your
> response
> > which have occurred between 9pm and 2am in San Francisco it appears that
> it
> > could not be possible for the WMF to have considered and refuted what was
> > raised, especially to say
> > *"The WMF and the AffCom have decided not to disclose further
> details​."  *​I
> > am concerned about how you can speak so categorically after just 5 hours
> > for the WMF when they arent even awake​, especially given it normally
> takes
> > a few days for any official statement from the WMF.
> >
> > I have no problem with affiliates being deregistered but the process
> should
> > be transparent and it should also be fair, no discussion or response to
> > what Josh raised publically is neither fair nor transparent
> >
> > Josh response was that WMPH was accountable you could have least given
> him
> > the chance to clarify the availability of the reporting requirements by
> > providing them
> >
> >
> > On 25 April 2017 at 17:33, Maor Malul <mao...@zoho.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> The wikimedians from the Phillippines that attended the WMCON are /not
> >> /members of WMPH but of PhilWiki Community [1], which is a completely
> >> different Wikimedia affiliate.
> >>
> >> If you read the original e-mail sent, the governance issues started to
> >> appear in 2014, and the chapter was notified back then. More issues
> >> accumulated over the time, and a solution was indeed searched for.
> Please
> >> elaborate on what "substantive discussion, consultation or
> investigation"
> >> means.
> >>
> >>
> >> 1: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/PhilWiki_Community
> >>
> >>
> >> El 25/04/2017 a las 12:16 p.m., Gnangarra escribió:
> >>
> >>> It appears to me as this discussion has caused some confusion and it
> >>> should be clarified as I know that the Philippines had two members at
> the
> >>> recent Wikimedia Conference in Berlin arent there reporting
> requirements
> >>> attached to eligibility requirements. They are also part of the group
> >>> organising the ESEA conference in February 2018 along with a number of
> >>> other affiliates in the region. Those of us who have committed people,
> time
> >>> and other resources need some clarity as well
> >>>
> >>> While there appears to be some confusion here, Affcom and WMF should at
> >>> least take some time to clarify the issues especially given its
> currently
> >>> 2am in San Francisco and it was only 9pm when Joshes email was sent.
> To me
> >>> it appears as if no substantive discussion, consultation or
> investigation
> >>> of Joshes claims could have taken place to warrant such a harsh
> response so
> >>> quickly.
> >>>
> >>> On 25 April 2017 at 16:05, Maor Malul <mao...@zoho.com <mailto:
> >>> mao...@zoho.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>      Hello Josh,
> >>>
> >>>      The WMF and the AffCom have decided not to disclose further
> >>>      details of the very serious governance issues in order not to hurt
> >>>      the movement and the reputation of the people involved. Please,
> >>>      avoid misleading and adding drama to this situation -which is
> >>>      already difficult, and damages the movement as a whole. WMPH was
> >>>      given very specific recommendations of what do and what not to do,
> >>>      but decided to go its own way.
> >>>
> >>>      M.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>      El 25/04/2017 a las 06:17 a.m., Josh Lim escribió:
> >>>
> >>>          If you folks seriously think that we weren’t being
> >>>          “accountable”, then I have serious doubts about how this
> >>>          process will remain sustainable.
> >>>
> >>>          I’m sorry, but this process has been exceedingly demotivating
> >>>          for everyone involved.  I’ve been trying to keep myself
> >>>          composed throughout the entire process, but at this point I
> >>>          simply cannot.
> >>>
> >>>          I will gladly admit that we’ve made mistakes, us more than
> >>>          others.  Every organization does.  But I will not allow the
> >>>          work that I’ve dedicated over a decade of my life to be thrown
> >>>          out the window because we weren’t “accountable”.  To the best
> >>>          of our ability, we WERE accountable to our community and to
> >>>          the movement.  And I, frankly, feet that we were as
> >>>          accountable as we could’ve been.
> >>>
> >>>          You may all want to know why I’ve been silent through this
> >>>          entire process.  It’s because I cannot, and I still cannot,
> >>>          process the grief this entire process has brought upon
> >>>          Wikimedia Philippines, and especially myself.  I will try to
> >>>          be optimistic about the future, as people have been telling me
> >>>          to do, but at this point in time, at least have some respect
> >>>          for the work that we’ve done over the last six years.  That’s
> >>>          really all I’m asking for at this point.
> >>>
> >>>          Thanks,
> >>>
> >>>          Josh
> >>>
> >>>              On Apr 23, 2017, at 9:41 PM, James Heilman
> >>>              <jmh...@gmail.com <mailto:jmh...@gmail.com>
> >>>              <mailto:jmh...@gmail.com <mailto:jmh...@gmail.com>>>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>              I second Itzik's comments. We need some degree of
> >>>              accountability. Hopefully this will encourage groups in
> >>>              the Philippines to become more active again.
> >>>
> >>>              James
> >>>
> >>>              On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 2:14 AM, Itzik - Wikimedia
> >>>              Israel<it...@wikimedia.org.il
> >>>              <mailto:it...@wikimedia.org.il>
> >>>              <mailto:it...@wikimedia.org.il
> >>>
> >>>              <mailto:it...@wikimedia.org.il>>>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>                  Thank you Maor for the update.
> >>>
> >>>                  We usually love to see our movement expend and welcome
> >>>                  recognition of new
> >>>                  organizations, but I strongly believe that we
> >>>              continuously need
> >>>                  to check
> >>>                  and evaluate our current organizations.
> >>>
> >>>                  Our brand, name and reputation are part of our core
> >>>              assets - and
> >>>                  while it's
> >>>                  not an easy step, I appreciate Affcom efforts not
> only to
> >>>                  recognize new
> >>>                  ones but also to de-recognize organizations that are
> >>>              not longer
> >>>                  active or
> >>>                  non-compliance with our movement requirements.
> >>>
> >>>                  Few weeks ago in Berlin we had a first meeting to
> >>>              start discuses
> >>>                  what is a
> >>>                  "movement accountability" and how we evaluate
> >>>              organizations who
> >>>                  operate
> >>>                  outside of the FDC process and I believe Affcom have a
> >>>                  significant part in
> >>>                  it.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>                  *Regards,Itzik Edri*
> >>>                  Chairperson, Wikimedia Israel
> >>>                  +972-54-5878078
> >>>                  <tel:%2B972-54-5878078> |http://www.wikimedia.org.il
> >>>                  <http://www.wikimedia.org.il/>
> >>>                  Imagine a world in which every single human being can
> >>>              freely
> >>>                  share in the
> >>>                  sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>                  On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 9:49 PM, Maor Malul
> >>>              <mao...@zoho.com <mailto:mao...@zoho.com>
> >>>                  <mailto:mao...@zoho.com <mailto:mao...@zoho.com>>>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>                  > *
> >>>                  >
> >>>                  > Dear all,
> >>>                  >
> >>>                  > *
> >>>                  >
> >>>                  > **
> >>>                  >
> >>>                  > *Recognition as a Wikimedia affiliate - a chapter,
> >>>              thematic
> >>>                  organization,
> >>>                  > or user group - allows an independent group to
> >>>              officially use
> >>>                  the Wikimedia
> >>>                  > name to further the Wikimedia mission, with certain
> >>>              duties and
> >>>                  > responsibilities.  While most Wikimedia affiliates
> >>>              adhere to
> >>>                  the basic
> >>>                  > compliance standards set forth in their agreements
> >>>              with the
> >>>                  Wikimedia
> >>>                  > Foundation, a protocol has been developed to
> address the
> >>>                  exceptional cases
> >>>                  > when a Wikimedia affiliate does not meet minimum
> >>>              compliance
> >>>                  standards and
> >>>                  > their continued recognition as a Wikimedia affiliate
> >>>              presents a
> >>>                  risk to the
> >>>                  > Wikimedia movement.*
> >>>                  >
> >>>                  > *
> >>>                  >
> >>>                  > On September 9, 2016, Wikimedia Philippines was
> >>>              notified of their
> >>>                  > suspension as a Wikimedia affiliate due to long
> >>>              standing and
> >>>                  serious
> >>>                  > governance issues, as well as non-compliance with
> >>>              reporting
> >>>                  requirements
> >>>                  > which go as back as 2014, has been sent multiple
> >>>              warnings
> >>>                  regarding them,
> >>>                  > and on the date mentioned above,  was provided with
> >>>              an explicit
> >>>                  list of
> >>>                  > tasks and deadlines in order to return to compliance
> >>>              with their
> >>>                  chapter
> >>>                  > agreement. The chapter failed to complete these
> >>>              tasks by the
> >>>                  deadline of
> >>>                  > November 28, 2016, and was consequently notified
> >>>              that they
> >>>                  would no longer
> >>>                  > be recognized as a Wikimedia chapter after the
> >>>              termination of
> >>>                  their Chapter
> >>>                  > Agreement on March 1, 2017.  It is important to make
> >>>              clear that the
> >>>                  > Affiliations Committee will continue to support
> >>>              other organized
> >>>                  Wikimedia
> >>>                  > communities and their activities in the Philippines.
> >>>                  >
> >>>                  > If you have questions about what this means for the
> >>>              community
> >>>                  members in
> >>>                  > their region or language areas, we have put together
> >>>              a very
> >>>                  basic FAQ,
> >>>                  > which may be found at<https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> >>>                  >
> >>>              wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliate_de-recognition_FAQ>
> https:/
> >>>                  >
> >>>              /meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/
> >>>              <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_
> affiliate
> >>> s/>
> >>>                            <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wi
> >>> ki/Wikimedia_movement_affiliates/
> >>>
> >>>              <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_movement_
> affiliate
> >>> s/>>
> >>>                  > Affiliate_derecognition_FAQ.*
> >>>                  >
> >>>                  >
> >>>                  > --
> >>>                  > "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü
> >>>              alijunakalirua jee
> >>>                  wayuukanairua
> >>>                  > junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka.
> >>>              Ayatashi waya
> >>>                  junain."
> >>>                  > Maor Malul
> >>>                  > Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2
> >>>                  |www.wikimedia.org.ve <http://www.wikimedia.org.ve>
> >>>              <http://www.wikimedia.org.ve/>
> >>>                  > <http://wikimedia.org.ve <http://wikimedia.org.ve/
> >>
> >>>                  > Member, Wikimedia Israel |www.wikimedia.org.il
> >>>              <http://www.wikimedia.org.il>
> >>>                  <http://www.wikimedia.org.il/><
> http://wikimedia.org.il
> >>>                  <http://wikimedia.org.il/>>
> >>>                  > Vice-Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations
> Committee
> >>>                  > Phone:+972-52-4869915 <tel:%2B972-52-4869915>
> >>>                  > Twitter: @maor_x
> >>>                  > _______________________________________________
> >>>                  > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines
> >>>                  at:https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> >>>              <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik>
> >>>                  > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>                  andhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>              <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l>
> >>>                  <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>              <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l>>
> >>>                  > New messages to:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>              <mailto:to%3awikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org>
> >>>                  <mailto:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>              <mailto:Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>>
> >>>                  >
> >>>                            Unsubscribe:https://lists.wik
> >>> imedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
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> >>> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
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> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines>>
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> >>> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> >>>              <https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l>>,
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>              --
> >>>              James Heilman
> >>>              MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> >>>
> >>>              The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
> >>>              _______________________________________________
> >>>              Affiliates mailing list
> >>>              affilia...@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>              <mailto:affilia...@lists.wikimedia.org>
> >>>              <mailto:affilia...@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>              <mailto:affilia...@lists.wikimedia.org>>
> >>>              https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates
> >>>              <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>          *JAMES JOSHUA G. LIM*
> >>>          President, Wikimedia Philippines
> >>>
> >>>          j <mailto:jamesjoshua...@yahoo.com
> >>>          <mailto:jamesjoshua...@yahoo.com>>osh....@wikimedia.org.ph
> >>>          <mailto:osh....@wikimedia.org.ph>
> >>>          <mailto:osh....@wikimedia.org.ph
> >>>          <mailto:osh....@wikimedia.org.ph>> | +63 (977) 831-7582
> >>>          Facebook/Twitter: akiestar | Wikimedia: Sky Harbor
> >>>          http://www.wikimedia.org.ph <http://www.wikimedia.org.ph/>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>          _______________________________________________
> >>>          Affiliates mailing list
> >>>          affilia...@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>          <mailto:affilia...@lists.wikimedia.org>
> >>>          https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates
> >>>          <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>      --    "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee
> >>>      wayuukanairua junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka.
> >>>      Ayatashi waya junain."
> >>>      Maor Malul
> >>>      Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
> >>>      www.wikimedia.org.ve <http://www.wikimedia.org.ve>
> >>>      <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
> >>>      Member, Wikimedia Israel | www.wikimedia.org.il
> >>>      <http://www.wikimedia.org.il> <http://wikimedia.org.il>
> >>>      Vice-Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
> >>>      Phone: +972-52-4869915
> >>>      Twitter: @maor_x
> >>>      _______________________________________________
> >>>      Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >>>      https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>      <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines> and
> >>>      https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>      <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l>
> >>>      New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> GN.
> >>> President Wikimedia Australia
> >>> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> >>> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Affiliates mailing list
> >>> affilia...@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/affiliates
> >>>
> >> --
> >> "*Jülüjain wane mmakat* ein kapülain tü alijunakalirua jee wayuukanairua
> >> junain ekerolaa alümüin supüshuwayale etijaanaka. Ayatashi waya junain."
> >> Maor Malul
> >> Socio, A.C. Wikimedia Venezuela | RIF J-40129321-2 |
> www.wikimedia.org.ve
> >> <http://wikimedia.org.ve>
> >> Member, Wikimedia Israel | www.wikimedia.org.il <
> http://wikimedia.org.il>
> >> Vice-Chair, Wikimedia Foundation Affiliations Committee
> >> Phone: +972-52-4869915
> >> Twitter: @maor_x
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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> >>
> >
> >
>
>
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-- 
James Heilman
MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian

The Wikipedia Open Textbook of Medicine
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